1 (Case called.)
2 THE COURT: Good morning.
3 Two announcements. One, Juror 1 had some
4 difficulty getting out of his driveway this morning --
5 have a seat -- and will be here shortly. He had to take a
6 cab but will get here one way or the other. In fact, he
7 phoned that he will be getting into a cab, so he will be
8 delayed slightly.
9 Secondly, Juror 8 reported in her car this
10 morning she was tapped in the rear by the car apparently
11 driven by defendant Reffsin. It is not a big thing. And
12 related that defendant Reffsin opened his window and said
13 I'm sorry. What else could he do? It had nothing to do
14 with her being on the jury, she said, has a completely
15 open mind and related that to us and I intend to have her
16 stay on the jury.
17 MR. REFFSIN: I apologize, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: We'll wait for the jury thing.
19 MR. TRABULUS: There is one thing before the jury
20 comes out. In Ms. Gaspar's, in one of the items, a memo
21 by Agent Jordan that is known as 3500-4A, there's a
22 reference to "I prepared this memorandum --"
23 THE COURT: You are speaking very rapidly,
24 Mr. Trabulus. What you say generally makes sense, so that
25 is all right. But you talk very rapidly. You have to
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1696
1 slow down. You might be before j udges who think much
2 faster than I do, see, and they may be able to keep up
3 with you, I can't.
4 MR. TRABULUS: Judge, what I was saying is I
5 received a typewritten memorandum and it says it was
6 prepared from memory and from notes taken during the
7 interview of Ms. Gaspar on that date. I haven't gotten
8 the handwritten notes, I've gotten handwritten notes from
9 earlier interviews. If they are still in existence for
10 this interview I believe I should get them.
11 THE COURT: Yes. Are they still in existence.
12 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I don't know. My
13 understanding Mr. Trabulus is not entitled to drafts of
14 this memorandum and therefore he wouldn't also be required
15 to be entitled to have the notes which have been reduced
16 to a formal memoranda.
17 THE COURT: I don't know whether that is so or
18 not. Where did you get that authority from? He would be
19 entitled to have original notes, not drafts in that, for
20 example, if there were three drafts of the typewritten
21 memorandum, he would not be entitled to that, but he would
22 be entitled to the original notes. Where do you get the
23 idea he would not? If there are original notes.
24 MR. WHITE: At one time the original notes were
25 there, but I have to see whether or not they exist.
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1 THE COURT: If they do tell me.
2 MR. WHITE: All right.
3 THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. Trabulus?
4 MR. TRABULUS: That's it.
5 THE COURT: He should be here very shortly.
6 (Short recess taken.)
7 (Jury enters.)
8 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury.
9 Please be seated.
10 We appreciate your continued diligence, even
11 though there are acts of God preventing people from
12 getting here, they get here anyway. That's great.
13 Ms. Gaspar, you are still under oath. Do you
14 understand that?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 M A R I A G A S P A R , having been previously sworn by
17 the Clerk of the Court, was examined and testified as
18 follows:
19 FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. TRABULUS:
21 Q Good morning, Ms. Gaspar. I'm Bruce Gordon's
22 lawyer.
23 When you worked at Who's Who, where physically
24 did you work in the offices?
25 A In the Lake Success facility.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q Beg your pardon?
2 A In Lake Success.
3 Q Is that where you worked?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Did you work at Sterling at all?
6 A No.
7 Q So you basically just worked at the Lake Success
8 facilities; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Can you describe those facilities for us?
11 A The whole facilities?
12 Q Well, why don't we just limit it to the area where
13 you worked.
14 A I had an office with a desk, computer, file cabinets.
15 Q And what other offices where you by?
16 A To my right I remember was a computer person.
17 Q Who was that, Mr. Kohler?
18 A Gary something.
19 Q Gary Kohler?
20 A To my left was the administration office.
21 Q And that included Liz Sautter?
22 A Liz Sautter and a whole bunch of other people.
23 Q Who with respect the other people?
24 A There were so many, I don't know.
25 Jeanine (ph), Wendy, I can't remember.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 THE COURT: Jeanine, how do you spell that?
2 THE WITNESS: J-e-i-n-e -- the best I know.
3 BY MR. TRABULUS:
4 Q Was that a suite of offices?
5 A One office.
6 Q And they all worked there?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, during -- and that's to your left and I think
9 you mentioned Mr. Kohler was to your right; is that
10 correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q What was beyond Mr. Kohler to your right?
13 A Behind?
14 Q Beyond.
15 A To his right was, I believe, Cara Green's office.
16 Q And that would be somebody in the sales department;
17 is that correct?
18 A Correct.
19 Q What was beyond the administration office to your
20 left?
21 A There was nothing behind. There was something going
22 that way (indicating) which would have been to the left
23 and there was Mr. Gordon's office.
24 Q To get to Mr. Gordon's office you would have to pass
25 by the administration; is that correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay.
3 Now, was there also like a cafeteria type
4 facility within the offices, a lunchroom with machines in
5 it?
6 A There was a cafeteria of some kind, yes.
7 Q A lunchroom with machines in it?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And people could go there and eat their lunch?
10 A I believe so.
11 Q Did you sometimes eat your lunch there?
12 A No.
13 Q During the course of a typical day, would you spend
14 the entire day sitting at your desk in your office or
15 would you go out of the office from time to time?
16 A I would eventually get out of my office.
17 Q Who would you normally speak to during the course of
18 a day?
19 A Very open question. Whoever.
20 Q In other words, basically you could talk to anybody
21 as the need arose?
22 A Hello, good morning, good afternoon.
23 Q Not just talking about that. But in terms of things
24 relating to the business, things you had to do, who would
25 you typically speak to?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A Business directly, would be with Mr. Gordon or
2 anybody in the division office or Gary, if there was any
3 computer problem.
4 Q Would you sometimes speak to the people in the Public
5 Affairs or Public Relations office such as Susan Konopka
6 or any of those people?
7 A If there were any issues related to payments, yes,
8 they would come to my office or I would have to go to
9 their office and discuss whatever the subjects were.
10 Q Is it fair to say although it may -- withdrawn.
11 Is it fair to say from time to time you might
12 speak to anybody who worked in the company except perhaps,
13 leaving aside for now the salespeople, as the need arose?
14 A Regarding financial subjects, yes.
15 Q Did you sometimes speak to people in the sales
16 department also?
17 A Very seldom.
18 Q That would only be if something came up with them
19 relating to financial matters; is that correct?
20 A I really didn't have anything to do in that respect.
21 Q Were some of them paid at least partially on a
22 commission basis?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you ever get into any discussions with them as to
25 whether or not their commissions had been computed
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 properly or anything like that?
2 A Payroll was not handled personally by me.
3 Q But you were familiar with it?
4 A I was familiar with it, yes.
5 Q It was handled by ADP?
6 A Yes. The preparation was done mainly by Elizabeth
7 Sautter. She would ask me to review it and it would be
8 transmitted to ADP.
9 Q During the course of a day -- well, withdrawn.
10 You testified that although you were hired as a
11 comptroller, you worked really more as a bookkeeper; is
12 that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Can you tell the members of the jury the difference
15 between a comptroller, as you see it, and a bookkeeper?
16 A A bookkeeper is more doing clerical work and being
17 guided by a supervisor. A comptroller or assistant
18 comptroller, they would be taking charge of some of the
19 financial requests and obligations that were necessary.
20 Q Would it be fair to say that a comptroller --
21 withdrawn.
22 So in your view, what you were doing is primarily
23 a bookkeeper; is that correct?
24 A Yes, because I could not make any decisions.
25 Q And a comptroller would be making decisions; is that
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you have the title chief financial officer?
4 A That's how I was hired, yes.
5 Q You were hired through an ad in the newspaper; is
6 that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You didn't go through this recommended by anyone?
9 A No, it was an ad in the paper.
10 Q During the course of your work, did you do some work
11 with regard to payroll?
12 A I used to fill in for Elizabeth whenever she was tied
13 up.
14 Q Elizabeth being Elizabeth Sautter?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q When you filled in for her, what did you do?
17 A I just gave the information to ADP and transmitted
18 it.
19 Q And you became familiar with the various peoples'
20 salaries who worked there?
21 A Tell you the truth, I was concerned more about doing
22 the input, not concerned with what anyone was particularly
23 earning.
24 Q So are you telling me you don't know what people were
25 earning?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Uhm, very few people. I can't tell you what they
2 were earning.
3 Q What were you earning?
4 A $1,200.
5 Q $1,200 a week?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Is that what you started at?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q So what does that come out to per year? $60,000?
10 A 60,000.
11 Q Now, do you know what Liz Sautter earned?
12 A The same amount of money.
13 Q Same as you?
14 A Umm-hmm.
15 Q Isn't it the fact that she earned more and you
16 resented it?
17 A Me, no.
18 Q Wasn't she in a supervisory position vis-a-vis you in
19 different respects?
20 A Totally different, supposedly finance.
21 Q You said "supposedly," I just want to know. Are you
22 telling me you weren't doing the financial work?
23 A Not to the full capacity that a comptroller would do.
24 Q What you are saying is you weren't functioning as a
25 comptroller?
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1 A That's correct.
2 Q And is it your understanding -- who had been doing
3 the work you were doing before you got hired by Who's Who
4 Worldwide, do you know?
5 A My understanding was that Elizabeth was just writing
6 checks and Mr. Reffsin's office used to collect the check
7 stubs and any information and process it in his office.
8 Q Elizabeth Sautter had been working for Mr. Gordon for
9 ten years, that is your understanding?
10 A I don't know the amount of time. For a long time.
11 Q You understood she was working there for a long
12 period of time?
13 A Correct.
14 Q It's your testimony you were hired for a clerical
15 position out of a newspaper and you were paid the same
16 salary as Elizabeth Sautter; is that correct?
17 A Let me rephrase that. When I was hired --
18 Q Just tell me yes or no, is that your testimony?
19 You were hired out of a newspaper for what
20 amounted to a clerical position and you were paid the same
21 amount as Elizabeth Sautter, that is your testimony?
22 A No.
23 Q So you were paid less?
24 A Let me explain, please.
25 Q Were you paid less?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A No.
2 Q Were you hired for a clerical position?
3 A No.
4 Q Were you performing a clerical position?
5 A Yes, I was.
6 Q Did anybody tell you after you were hired they
7 weren't satisfied with you and didn't think you were up to
8 the position you were hired for?
9 A No, nobody did.
10 Q Did you complain you were only doing a clerical
11 position?
12 A I mentioned a few times, yes.
13 Q You didn't like that fact, did you?
14 A No, I just felt that I could offer the company a lot
15 more than I was offering.
16 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, you grew up in Portugal; is that
17 correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And you were educated in Portugal, were you not?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And in Portugal you've told people that you were an
22 accountant; is that correct?
23 A That's correct.
24 Q And in fact, have you told people in Portugal that
25 you were trained and became an accountant just like a
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Certified Public Accountant here, I don't know what they
2 call it there, right?
3 A The terminology, if you want me to say it in
4 Portuguese, I think I will.
5 MR. TRABULUS: I think the court reporter would
6 have a little difficulty unless he understands
7 Portuguese.
8 BY MR. TRABULUS:
9 Q You were basically working as a bookkeeper, that's
10 your testimony?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you were certainly not happy with the fact you
13 were working only as a bookkeeper?
14 A I resigned myself to the fact that that's what the
15 owner wanted, that's what the president of the company
16 wanted.
17 Q Did the president of the company ever tell you why he
18 would hire a brand new clerical employee and pay that
19 person the same salary as he was paying a long time
20 right-hand assistant?
21 Yes or no?
22 A I recall the interview that I had, the very first
23 interview --
24 THE COURT: Wait a minute now. On
25 cross-examination you will be asked questions that call
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 for a yes or no answer. If you don't know or don't
2 remember, of course say so, otherwise, please try to
3 answer yes or no. If you can't answer a question yes or
4 no, say that, "I can't answer that question yes or no."
5 That shifts the question back to Mr. Trabulus who will
6 decide what he will say, but don't make explanations.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: He's entitled to zero in on what he
9 wants to hear on the issue or the subject matter he's
10 interested in.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 THE COURT: Now. Mr. White will have another
13 opportunity to question you. If he thinks that you
14 haven't been permitted to answer fully, he can ask you at
15 that point.
16 Do you understand our procedure?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: I cannot answer that question with
20 a yes or a no.
21 BY MR. TRABULUS:
22 Q Okay. Now, let's go to some of the things you did in
23 your clerical position.
24 Did you become familiar with the making of
25 refunds by Who's Who Worldwide? Did you do any
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 bookkeeping for refunds?
2 A If there were refunds issued by check, yes.
3 Q And were you familiar with refunds being issued by
4 check?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Did you come to learn Who's Who Worldwide's policy of
7 making re funds if people wanted a refund, changed their
8 mind or was dissatisfied or whatever?
9 A I was given information from the administration to
10 refund.
11 Q And would you have occasion to discuss with the
12 administration as to what the occasion for the refund
13 would be?
14 A Normally an explanation was written on the paperwork
15 as was given to me.
16 Q Would you have occasion to read the explanation?
17 A Most of the time.
18 Q What were some of the reasons that were given?
19 A I can't recall.
20 Q Okay.
21 Is it fair to say that there was a policy that
22 you were aware of making refunds to members or people who
23 had purchased who for some reason or another decided to
24 change their mind; is that correct?
25 A That is correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Q And that as far as you know was implemented; is that
2 correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Let me ask you this. Did you work on the preparation
5 of the corporate income tax returns for Who's Who?
6 A Tax returns?
7 Q Yes.
8 A No, I had nothing to do with tax returns.
9 Q You had nothing to do with any tax returns; isn't
10 that correct?
11 A Only if there was any backup paperwork I was asked,
12 but nothing to do with tax returns.
13 Q So you never saw any tax return of Who's Who
14 Worldwide; is that correct?
15 A I don't recall if I did, but I'm not a tax expert to
16 begin with.
17 Q Well, you don't need an expert to know whether you
18 see a tax return, do you?
19 A I don't recall.
20 Q Did you ever see any personal tax return of
21 Mr. Gordon's?
22 A I don't recall.
23 Q Now, I think you testified yesterday that Mr. Gordon
24 was receiving less money than you were; is that right?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And that he was receiving less money than Liz was; is
2 that right?
3 A That's my understanding.
4 Q That was your understanding back then, is that what
5 you are saying?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And you base that understanding from the information
8 that you say you saw from ADP and so forth, right?
9 A Right.
10 Q Now, ADP prepared W-2s, did it not?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you start working in December of 1993; is that
13 correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 MR. TRABULUS: Bear with me a moment, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 BY MR. TRABULUS:
18 Q Now, you worked at Who's Who through October 1994?
19 A Yes.
20 Q So it's a period of about ten months or so?
21 A Yes.
22 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, by stipulation I would
23 offer Government's Exhibit 411 which is a tax return, U.S.
24 individual tax return of Bruce Gordon for the calendar
25 year 1993.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 Also, Your Honor, while a sticker is being put on
2 it as 412, which is also a 1040 form for Bruce Gordon, but
3 for the calendar year 1994.
4 THE COURT: Any objection?
5 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Government's Exhibits 411 and 412 in
7 evidence.
8 (Government's Exhibits 411 and 412 received in
9 evidence.)
10 MR. TRABULUS: Judge, we're just checking to make
11 sure the numbering is right here.
12 Okay.
13 BY MR. TRABULUS:
14 Q Ms. Gaspar, I will show you these two documents.
15 I'll put 411 on top and I'll talk about them just
16 briefly.
17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I'm sorry to interrupt.
18 May I just take a quick look at 412?
19 THE COURT: Surely.
20 MR. WHITE: Thank you. I'm sorry.
21 BY MR. TRABULUS:
22 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, I think at one time you were
23 interviewed by a government agent and I think you told him
24 Mr. Gordon was only making 8 or $900 a week?
25 A Somewhere around $1,000.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1713
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1 Q Around $1,000 per week, which would come out to
2 52,000 a year. Do you think it might be less, somewhere
3 between 8 and 900?
4 A Somewhere around there.
5 Q Take a look at 411, that's Mr. Gordon's income tax
6 return for 1993.
7 Can you tell us what it reports his wages,
8 salaries and tips as being?
9 A Yes, I can. $91,208.
10 Q And in fact, yesterday you testified to a letter that
11 you yourself wrote.
12 A That's correct.
13 Q That also listed that amount; is that correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And is it your testimony that Mr. Gordon was
16 overstating his income to the IRS?
17 A No, and I have --
18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
19 Q Now, 412, that is the 1994 income tax return.
20 What does that show his wages, salaries and tips
21 as being?
22 A $139,447.
23 Q Thank you.
24 Now, you weren't making more than $91,000 at any
25 time, were you, at the company?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1714
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1 A No, I was not.
2 Q And Liz Sautter was not?
3 A Not to the best of my knowledge.
4 Q Was anyone making more than $91,000 besides
5 Mr. Gordon?
6 A I wouldn't be able to answer that. Maybe it is
7 possible some salesman or saleswoman who had a really good
8 year and had a lot of good commissions may have earned
9 that. I don't know.
10 Q Anyone make more $139,000 a year besides Mr. Gordon?
11 A This is for the full year of '94?
12 Q You might not know the full year of '94, so let me
13 change that question in fairness to you.
14 During the time period while you were there in
15 1994, was anybody being paid at a rate which would have
16 computed out to over $139,000 a year if you stretched it
17 out over the entire year?
18 A Not to my knowledge.
19 Q Besides Mr. Gordon?
20 A Right.
21 Q Now, were you involved in the payment of payroll
22 taxes by any of the corporations?
23 A ADP automatically used to make the payments.
24 Q You indicated that you became familiar with the
25 payroll that ADP prepaFF0000; is that correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1715
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q And there would be a certain bottom line. Was it
3 every two months or so?
4 A Weekly basis.
5 THE COURT: You may proceed.
6 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Your Honor.
7 BY MR. TRABULUS:
8 Q So it was on a weekly basis.
9 Do you remember what the payroll taxes were on a
10 weekly basis while you were there?
11 A I couldn't tell you.
12 Q Do you know if it was over $20,000?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q Over $30,000?
15 A I have no recollection.
16 Q Do you remember what the weekly payroll was?
17 A I cannot tell you.
18 Q How many employees were working at Who's Who while
19 you were there?
20 A Between 80 to 100 I would say.
21 Q Okay. And did you also work with -- withdrawn.
22 Now, you've indicated that you were at the
23 Hummingbird Road condominium; is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And when you were there were you shown an office
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 there?
2 A Yes, Mr. Gordon had an office there.
3 Q He had an office there; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And did you do any payroll -- withdrawn.
6 Did you do any books the for PVI company? Did
7 you do any work there?
8 A There was some entries being done for PVI.
9 Q And among those entries, did you record any rent
10 checks from Mr. Gordon to PVI? Do you recall that?
11 A I recall there being some monthly payments from
12 Mr. Gordon to PVI, yes.
13 Q And I asked you if there were any rent checks. Do
14 you have any reason to believe they weren't rent?
15 A Something reminds me, kind of brings me back that the
16 payments covered utility bills.
17 Q $2,500 or $2,000?
18 A Something like that.
19 Q There was a $2,000 a month utility there?
20 A Something in the back of my mind kind of tells me
21 those payments were to cover utility bills.
22 Q Was there any kind of factory being operated there?
23 A No.
24 Q Now, I would like you to tell me about the office
25 that you saw. Could you describe just the office?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1717
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A I remember seeing a computer and that's about it.
2 Q Well, did you see a desk, chairs?
3 A I don't really recall. I remember seeing a computer
4 and I remember him saying this is my office, but --
5 Q That's all you remember?
6 A That's all I remember.
7 Q All right.
8 How far a drive was that from the Lake Success
9 offices?
10 A Fifteen minutes, 20 minutes. I don't recall.
11 Q Well, I don't know that everybody knows in this jury
12 where these places are, not everybody lives in Nassau
13 County.
14 Where is Lake Success? Can you describe it?
15 A Close to New Hyde Park.
16 Q Northern half of Nassau County, kind of towards
17 Queens, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q All right.
20 And where was the Hummingbird Road property?
21 That was in a place called Searingtown, right?
22 A Somewhere around there, yes.
23 Q And that's also in the northerly part of Nassau
24 County?
25 A Yes. I'm not really very familiar with the area.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1718
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Maybe about the same northness as Lake Success, maybe
2 a little more north, right?
3 A A little more north.
4 Q More north?
5 A Yes.
6 Q How many miles away; two, three?
7 A I can't tell you.
8 Q And how many times were you at the Hummingbird Road
9 property?
10 A Once.
11 Q Were you driven there?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And did you drive directly from Lake Success?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you drive directly back to Lake Success from
16 there?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did you make any stops back from Lake Success?
19 A Not that I recall.
20 Q And would you say 15 minutes?
21 A Ten minutes.
22 Q Maybe even ten minutes?
23 A I don't recall, I really don't.
24 Q Now, let's talk about have you ever been to the
25 Lexington Avenue facilities of Sterling?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And that's near 59th Street?
3 A Yes, I was.
4 Q Where was the penthouse, the penthouse in the city,
5 somewhere around?
6 A 3rd Avenue.
7 Q And 60th Street?
8 A Somewhere around there.
9 Q About two minutes away by foot?
10 A By?
11 Q If you walked from Sterling to the penthouse it was a
12 few minutes, right?
13 A I remember walking once, it was more than two
14 minutes.
15 Q Well, five minutes?
16 A About ten minutes.
17 Q Ten minutes.
18 59th Street and Lexington Avenue was Sterling?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And the penthouse was on 60th Street?
21 A Somewhere around there.
22 Q Do you know what avenue?
23 A I don't know Manhattan that well.
24 Q Well, do you know what avenue it was? Was it on the
25 east side?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1720
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A You are asking the wrong person. I don't know the
2 east from the west side of Manhattan.
3 MR. TRABULUS: Sorry. I misspoke, 54th and 2nd.
4 A 2nd Avenue.
5 Q I was a little too close. That would be maybe seven
6 or eight minutes, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q I think you said that you went to a cocktail party
9 there; is that right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And that was on a Saturday night?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And that was at Mr. Gordon's invitation?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q In fact, it was more than even his invitation, it was
16 at his instruction, he told people they had to be there?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Was there some kind of a friction among some of the
19 staff members before that, were you aware that?
20 A Not that I'm aware of.
21 Q Okay.
22 But he basically told people they were to go
23 there for this cocktail party that Saturday night; is that
24 correct?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1721
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And people weren't paid extra for that Saturday
2 night?
3 A Absolutely not.
4 Q But the people who were told came; is that right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And that included Ms. Konopka; is that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You were there with your husband?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And your son was there?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Your son was there too?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And other people?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Basically when Mr. Gordon told them to come for this
17 meeting, basically he set it up for whatever purposes they
18 wanted it and they came?
19 A To the best of my knowledge.
20 Q You mentioned something about the Grossmans
21 yesterday. Do you recall that?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you said that you were told that Mr. Grossman,
24 Richard Grossman, his name was on the credit card merchant
25 account?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1722
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A Yes.
2 Q That's the account -- not that the company's handles
3 it, but the bank?
4 A The merchant.
5 Q So people can charge their memberships at Who's Who?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And Mr. Grossman's name was on that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And you understood because of the credit perhaps that
10 Mr. Grossman had, it had to be Mr. Grossman or whose ever
11 name was that on there?
12 A That's what I was told.
13 Q You were also told at some point of time the
14 Grossmans were made the owners of Who's Who; is that
15 right?
16 A That was my understanding.
17 Q Beg your pardon?
18 A That's my understanding.
19 Q You were told that by Ms. Sautter?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And there was some kind of problem?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Basically you were told that also while you were
24 talking about the merchant credit account?
25 A Yes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1723
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Did it appear to you that was being done also in
2 connection with having the merchant account that that
3 might be the reason they were made orders?
4 A Yes.
5 Q That was the impression you got?
6 A Umm-hmm.
7 Q You have to say yes or no because the reporter can't
8 take down an umm-hmm.
9 A Yes.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Excuse me.
11 Q Now, you testified yesterday to a conversation that
12 you said you had with Mr. Reffsin about Mr. Gordon's
13 loans; is that correct?
14 A Umm-hmm.
15 Q Once again, you have to say yes or no.
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Sure. Because an umm-hmm or an ah-huh come out the
18 same way on the transcript and I bet what I just said will
19 come out the same way.
20 A I apologize.
21 Q You said you had a conversation with him concerning
22 the way these payments to Mr. Gordon were to be reflected;
23 is that right?
24 Yes?
25 A Yes, sir.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1724
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And you said that these things appeared to be
2 personal; is that right?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Now, certainly some things were personal, is that
5 correct, like clothing and so forth?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, my stipulation, the
8 parties are offering into evidence 842-A through Y -- is
9 it A through Z. I'm sorry, 842-A through Z and 843-A
10 through X. And these are photographs that were taken --
11 we hav e dates for some of them, January 23, 1996 for the
12 smaller ones, the Polaroids.
13 The others we'll stipulate were taken during the
14 same month, January of 1996, of the 250 East 45th Street
15 penthouse, apartment 4, and they were taken apparently by
16 an attorney for the bankruptcy trustee.
17 THE COURT: Any objection?
18 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 842-A through
20 842-Z, and 843-A through 843-X, in evidence.
21 (Government's Exhibits 842-A through 842-Z
22 received in evidence.)
23 (Government's Exhibits 843-A through 843-X
24 received in evidence.)
25 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Your Honor.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1725
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 BY MR. TRABULUS:
2 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, were you aware that some of the
3 things that were charged on Mr. Gordon on his Amex account
4 were utilized in the penthouse apartment? Were you aware?
5 A Some of them were.
6 Q And were you aware that some of the sculpture, the
7 one shown in 842-Z, was that charged on the Amex account?
8 A I don't recall -- I don't recall, sir.
9 Q The paintings? There was a piano there, was there
10 not? Do you know if that was charged on the Amex account?
11 A I couldn't tell you that. I don't recall.
12 Q Do you recall some of the items there were charged on
13 the Amex account?
14 A I remember one particular item that I was told to be
15 super careful with a delivery of it being charged.
16 Q On the Amex account?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What item was that?
19 A It was something that was purchased in Europe, some
20 art. There was approximately $30,000. That I recall very
21 clearly.
22 Q Okay.
23 That was used to decorate the apartment, the
24 penthouse; is that correct?
25 A That is correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1726
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And when you went to the penthouse, you saw it there,
2 right?
3 A Well, I was responsible to make sure that the item
4 was in proper condition, so I do recall that very clearly.
5 Q And that was something which was booked as a loan to
6 Mr. Gordon; is that correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Are you aware that that was sold off by the
9 bankruptcy trustee and that Mr. Gordon didn't get the
10 proceeds but it went to the bankruptcy estate?
11 A I'm not aware of that status.
12 Q Was it what you did was to book everything that was
13 charged on Mr. Gordon's card on the Amex to the loan
14 account regardless of whether or not it was a business
15 property or personal?
16 A At that time I was told by Mr. Gordon there was a
17 piece of art he liked and he bought it for himself.
18 Q Okay.
19 It's understood that there could be some that he
20 bought for himself. What I'm asking you for is this --
21 MR. TRABULUS: I move to strike the answer.
22 THE COURT: Do you want a decision on the
23 motion?
24 MR. TRABULUS: I'm sorry, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Or did you just say it because you
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1727
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 are going ahead to the next question rapidly, quickly,
2 fast. Is that it? Or do you want a decision on the
3 motion to strike?
4 MR. TRABULUS: I respectfully request a decision
5 to strike.
6 THE COURT: That motion is granted. The answer
7 is stricken as not being responsive.
8 Listen to the question and answer what you're
9 asked. Do you understand that?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
11 BY MR. TRABULUS:
12 Q Ms. Gaspar, the question is, did you book every
13 purchase made by Mr. Gordon on the American Express
14 account or I think there were some made by Ms. Sautter
15 that she indicated were for Mr. Gordon?
16 A Yes.
17 Q All of those that were indicated as Gordon, did you
18 book them as loans to Mr. Gordon?
19 A If I was instructed to, yes.
20 Q Were any that you booked not as loans to Mr. Gordon
21 but as corporate expenses?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you maintain a log as to which were expensed as
24 charges, which ones were booked as loans?
25 A The credit card bills would indicate the amount that
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1728
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 was charged to loans and the amount that would be charged
2 to entertainment, if there was a case.
3 Q If there was business entertainment that would be
4 charged as a business expense; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And do you know whether or not Mr. Gordon --
7 withdrawn.
8 As far as you understood, that was legitimate to
9 book that as a business expense, was it not?
10 A Those were the instructions that I had.
11 Q And you had no reasons to believe those instructions
12 were incorrect?
13 A Not coming from my boss.
14 Q You had no reasons to believe those were not indeed
15 business entertainment expenses, do you?
16 A I was told that they were.
17 Q I asked you if you have any reason to believe there
18 were not?
19 A Yes.
20 Q That was easy, wasn't it?
21 MR. WHITE: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 Yes. Let's move along, Mr. Trabulus.
24 BY MR. TRABULUS:
25 Q Now, it's your testimony that Mr. -- Withdrawn.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1729
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 When the business -- withdrawn.
2 When the corporation booked something as a loan
3 to Mr. Gordon, is it correct that it did not book that as
4 an expense to itself?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q So because it didn't book it as an expense to itself,
7 it would not take a tax deduction from its own income for
8 it; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q Are you aware as to the amount of corporate income
11 taxes paid by Who's Who?
12 A Not at that point, no.
13 Q Are you aware as to what its annual income was around
14 that time?
15 A Not at that time, no, I wasn't.
16 Q Are you aware as to what the corporate income tax
17 rate was at that time?
18 A No, I was not.
19 Q The percentage.
20 A Not for the corporation, no.
21 Q Now, it's your testimony that Mr. Reffsin told you
22 that it was being booked that way so that Mr. Gordon
23 wouldn't have to pay taxes on it, is that what you are
24 told? Is that what you say?
25 A If I remember correct --
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1730
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Yes or no, ma'am?
2 A I cannot answer the question with a yes or no.
3 Q Is it your testimony that Mr. Reffsin told you that
4 Mr. Gordon had a personal tax liability?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You weren't a particular friend of Mr. Reffsin?
7 A Not an enemy either.
8 Q I understand that. But it wasn't somebody whom you
9 had a close relationship with, correct?
10 A A business relationship.
11 Q He had been working there -- withdrawn.
12 You say that he told you this after you were
13 there only a very short time, right?
14 A Couple months, probably.
15 Q The first time that you say that you were -- the
16 question came up as to how to record these loans; is that
17 right?
18 A To my recollection, yes.
19 Q And when was the first time that you had to record
20 these loans after you started working there?
21 A Sometime in the beginning of '94.
22 Q You started in December of '93?
23 A Umm-hmm.
24 Q Yes, sir?
25 A Yes, sir.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1731
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And the American Express card came in on a monthly
2 basis; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q So it would have been certainly within the first two
5 months you had to do this?
6 A I would say you are correct.
7 Q Now, you were working as a bookkeeper or comptroller
8 for Who's Who; is that correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q You did not work on Mr. Gordon's personal affairs; is
11 that correct?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q It is not correct or you did not work on them?
14 A I did not.
15 Q You did not work on them.
16 Now, Mr. Reffsin, do you understand that he
17 worked on Mr. Gordon's personal affairs?
18 A That's my understanding.
19 Q And is it your understanding -- withdrawn.
20 You are an accountant, right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And isn't it true that an accountant is not supposed
23 to reveal confidences about his clients to other people?
24 A It's my policy.
25 Q So you were a new employee at Who's Who Worldwide; is
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1732
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 that correct?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And you've been hired out of a newspaper; is that
4 correct?
5 A That is correct.
6 Q No prior relationship with anybody there?
7 A Absolutely.
8 Q And you are saying that Mr. Reffsin came and told you
9 something about Mr. Gordon's personal tax situation,
10 that's your testimony?
11 Yes or no, ma'am?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, when you say he told you this, he didn't tell
14 you, did he, that he was asking you to do anything wrong,
15 did he?
16 A No.
17 Q He didn't say that he regarded this as any kind of
18 improper thing, did he?
19 A No, he did not.
20 Q Now, when was the first time you ever spoke to
21 anybody for the government, one of the agents here or any
22 agent? When was the first time?
23 A Sometime in the summer of '94.
24 Q The summer of '94. That's while you were still
25 working there?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1733
Gasper- cross/Trabulus
1 A I'm sorry?
2 Q Summer of '95?
3 A I'm sorry, '95.
4 Q At that point in time you were working at the
5 Huntington Townhouse; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Do you still work at the Huntington Townhouse?
8 A No longer.
9 Q Where did you work before you went to Who's Who?
10 What was the name of your employer?
11 A Precision Gear.
12 Q What was the name of the person you worked for there?
13 A Mr. William Girimonte and Matthew Forelli.
14 Q Now, when you -- excuse me.
15 Would it refresh you recollection if that first
16 time was June 23, 1995?
17 A It's possible.
18 Q And one of the agents that you spoke to was Agent
19 Jordan who I'm pointing to now, do you recall that?
20 A Yes, I recall.
21 Q Did they make an appointment to come see you at the
22 Huntington Townhouse or they just showed up?
23 A Showed up.
24 Q They told you they wanted to talk to you about your
25 work at Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1734
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A Something to that effect, yes.
2 Q And you talked to them about it; is that correct?
3 A Whatever questions they asked me, I answered.
4 Q Now, do you recall whether the subject of the logs
5 came up in that conversation?
6 Yes or no?
7 A I don't recall.
8 Q And as far as you recall, you may not have said
9 anything at all about the logs at that point; is that
10 correct?
11 A If they didn't ask, I wouldn't have thought about it.
12 Q And do you recall that there was an occasion when the
13 subject of the logs first came up, whether at that meeting
14 or some later other meeting?
15 A At some other meeting, yes.
16 Q You also met with them on January 14, 1996, is that
17 correct, or at least with some agents? Do you remember
18 that?
19 A Approximately six months after that, I don't remember
20 the date.
21 Q And that was not at the Huntington Townhouse but that
22 was at the Postal Inspectors' Offices in Hicksville; is
23 that correct?
24 A Hicksville, that's correct.
25 Q On John Street?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1735
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A I don't know the street.
2 Q How did you come to go there? Did they call you to
3 come down there? Did you get a subpoena?
4 A They told me to meet them in there.
5 Q Okay.
6 A If I recall, I couldn't see them at the Townhouse
7 because it was like close to my house, that's why we
8 agreed to meet.
9 Q And you went there, right?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And you spoke to them.
12 A Yes.
13 Q Now, at that meeting did they show you the logs?
14 A Truthfully, I don't recall if they showed it to me.
15 I know the conversation came about.
16 Q It came up a conversation about the logs; is that
17 correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And in the first of the conversation they just asked
20 you if you had prepared the logs or if you knew anything
21 about that?
22 A Something to that effect, correct.
23 Q And when they told you that, they didn't tell you
24 that there was nothing wrong with the logs before they
25 asked you that question, did they?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1736
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A No, sir.
2 Q And then you told them that you had prepared the
3 logs?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And then after -- at that point in time did you tell
6 them that there anything wrong with the logs when you said
7 "I prepared them" when they first asked you if you
8 prepared them? Did you say yes?
9 A I did say I prepared them, yes.
10 Q But when they said that you didn't tell them there
11 was anything wrong with that, did you, when they first
12 asked you at the very beginning?
13 A I just said I didn't like the way it was done but I
14 did it.
15 Q Did they not tell you that they had spoken to other
16 people and that the people whose names were there said
17 they hadn't gone to any meetings, is that right? They
18 told you that at some point?
19 A I don't recall at that time.
20 Q Well, did they tell that you they knew those logs had
21 phony entries on them?
22 A They probably did know. I was not told, to my
23 recollection.
24 Q You don't recall.
25 So you are saying that you voluntarily told them
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1737
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 that you did phony logs without them telling you that they
2 were phony?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you understand that that could have been a crime
5 to do that?
6 A I had no clue.
7 Q You had no clue.
8 You thought it was perfectly okay.
9 A No, I knew it was not correct, but I didn't know the
10 extent of the damage.
11 Q Did they tell you that it was a crime?
12 A I don't recall. The word "crime" I don't recall
13 being used.
14 Q Did they tell you you could be in trouble?
15 A I don't recall at that time either. Maybe at the
16 future meeting, maybe they said something.
17 Q At the future meeting they said you could be in
18 trouble?
19 A Umm-hmm.
20 Q So it's your testimony -- so when you first told them
21 you did the logs --
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you told them you didn't like doing it?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And when they first asked you did you do the logs,
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1738
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 did you tell them "I phonied them up right away"?
2 A I told them I made them up according to the
3 instructions.
4 Q Did you tell them that you prepared the logs?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When they first asked you about the logs, they didn't
7 tell you that there was nothing wrong with them, right?
8 A To my recollection, not at that time.
9 Q So you wouldn't have any reason to come out and tell
10 them that the logs were phony, would you?
11 A No.
12 Q So are you saying that the first thing you did when
13 they asked you about the logs was tell them that they were
1 4 phony?
15 A No, I remembered telling them that I had prepared the
16 log according to the instructions, but they were not
17 realistic logs.
18 Q Basically you understood these were federal law
19 enforcement agents?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And they told you at the previous meeting they were
22 conducting an investigation, right?
23 A Something to that effect.
24 Q Did you understand these people were conducting a
25 criminal investigation to see whether or not there were
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1739
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 crimes committed?
2 A I knew they were conducting something. The extent of
3 it I really did not know.
4 Q I'm not asking you the extent of it.
5 Did you know whether or not they were looking
6 into possible crimes? Did they tell you that?
7 A They didn't say it.
8 Q They didn't say that.
9 A That I remember, no.
10 Q Did they -- did Mr. Jordan tell you that he was with
11 the Criminal Intelligence Division of the Internal Revenue
12 Service?
13 A I remember them giving them their business cards.
14 Q And did it say that on it?
15 A Criminal investigators, something like that.
16 Q Criminal investigators, something like that?
17 A Something.
18 Q Okay.
19 You knew from that that there was certainly a
20 criminal investigation underway; is that correct?
21 A Something to that effect.
22 Q Did that worry or concern you at that time when you
23 first got that card?
24 A Not really.
25 Q It didn't?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1740
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A Not really.
2 Q You got that card at the Huntington Townhouse?
3 A Yes.
4 Q That was in the summer of 1995?
5 A Yes.
6 Q That was in the meeting where you didn't talk about
7 the logs?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And it didn't worry you, right?
10 A Didn't even think about it.
11 Q You knew at the time that you had prepared phony
12 logs, you were being spoken to by criminal investigators,
13 and you didn't worry about it, right?
14 A If the subject didn't come up, I wouldn't have any
15 reason to think about it.
16 Q You hadn't been found out yet, right?
17 A About what?
18 Q Doing the phony logs, right, as far as you knew.
19 A I knew I had done something, but --
20 Q But you weren't worried because they apparently
21 didn't know about it, right?
22 A It didn't come up in the conversation here, sir.
23 Q Now, a time comes that they come back and they do
24 talk to you about the logs, right?
25 A Umm-hmm.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1741
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Yes?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And --
4 THE COURT: You have to answer. Excuse me, you
5 have to answer "yes" rather than "umm-hmm." Umm-hmm, of
6 course, could be ah-huh.
7 If it's uh-uh, it means no, right?
8 I break this up every once in a while, that's
9 all.
10 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus had it right. He did it
12 better than I did.
13 MR. TRABULUS: I've learned from a master, Your
14 Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 BY MR. TRABULUS:
17 Q Ms. Gaspar, so now we come to the second meeting and
18 now they seem to know something about the logs, right?
19 A To my recollection, that's correct.
20 Q And you tell them, yeah, I did it, but they told me
21 to do it, right?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q Now, at a certain point in time you are asked -- you
24 are offered immunity; is that correct?
25 A Oh, much later.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1742
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Right.
2 And at that point you had spoken to an attorney,
3 had you not?
4 A I recalled them coming in the office --
5 Q I don't mean the U.S. Attorney. Did you ever speak
6 to an attorney yourself?
7 A Only when they brought up the fact that they
8 recommended I would hire an attorney.
9 Q And that attorney negotiated the immunity for you,
10 obtained that, right?
11 A Right there, in the presence of the agents, I called
12 an attorney that I used to deal with.
13 Q And that attorney got the immunity for you; is that
14 right?
15 A And they spoke. I don't know what they spoke about.
16 Q At a certain point in time you got immunity, right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did the agents tell you they really weren't
19 interested in coming after you, they were interested in
20 your bosses or the people above you? Did they ever say
21 that to you?
22 A There was not mention to me.
23 Q Never said that.
24 You testified earlier on that when Mr. White was
25 questioning you you understood that that immunity meant
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1743
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 that you couldn't be prosecuted for what you said you did,
2 but if you lied you could be prosecuted for lying, right?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Did the agents also tell you that it was a crime to
5 lie to the agents when they interviewed you?
6 A I never lied to the agents.
7 Q I didn't ask you that, did I?
8 Did the agents tell you that it was a lie -- that
9 it would be a crime if you would lie to them, right? Did
10 they tell you that?
11 A Well, lying is a crime to begin with.
12 Q Well, you understood that if you had lied to the
13 agents when they were interviewing you, that would have
14 been a crime. They told you that afterwards, right?
15 A Probably. I don't recall.
16 Q So you knew that if when you testified you changed
17 your story, you could be subject to having lied to the
18 agents earlier on, right? This was before you went into
19 the grand jury, right?
20 A That is not correct.
21 Q Oh, you thought that you could change your story and
22 you wouldn't be prosecuted. They would say go in there
23 and say we don't know what truth is, you go in there and
24 tell it and no repercussions will come?
25 A I told the truth before I even knew about immunity.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1744
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 MR. TRABULUS: Move to strike.
2 THE COURT: Strike it out as not being
3 responsive. The jury is instructed to disregard it.
4 BY MR. TRABULUS:
5 Q I believe you said that you were in court the day
6 that it was decided that the logs were going to be
7 prepared, is that right, in the bankruptcy court?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Were you actually in the courtroom when the lawyers
10 were talking about the logs? Do you remember?
11 A Can you refresh my memory, please?
12 Q Yeah, I'll try to do that. But before that I will
13 show you a transcript.
14 Do you remember whether or not you were actually
15 in the courtroom while the lawyers were talking or you
16 learned about it after the lawyers came out of the
17 courtroom?
18 A I remember being in a courtroom --
19 Q All right.
20 I'll show you the transcript.
21 MR. WHITE: Can the witness finish the answer,
22 Your Honor?
23 THE COURT: Yes. She didn't finish her answer.
24 MR. TRABULUS: I thought you had, I'm sorry,
25 continue.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1745
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A I can remember being in court with a whole bunch of
2 other members of Who's Who. Exactly when, is that when
3 you are referring to?
4 Q I'll show you a transcript. I'll let you look at it
5 and you tell me whether you remember if those words were
6 being said. Is that all right?
7 A Okay.
8 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I'm going to show the
9 witness 631 which is not in evidence, it's for
10 Identification but it is being used for the purpose of
11 seeing whether her recollection may be refreshed. I'm
12 using a copy of it (handing.)
13 A (Perusing.) This is not --
14 THE COURT: Anything you say --
15 A That does not portend -- I don't see my name in
16 there, so it is hard to recall if anybody would have said
17 it at that time.
18 Q Fair enough.
19 So you are not sure whether you were actually
20 there while you were present?
21 A I --
22 Q I misspoke.
23 You were not sure that you were present when
24 those words were spoken?
25 A I can't recall.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1746
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q There was talk in the courthouse that day whether or
2 not it was -- whether you were there in the court as it
3 was happening or right afterwards and some logs would have
4 to be prepared, right?
5 A Are you referring to the bankruptcy court?
6 Q Yes.
7 A The 341 hearings?
8 Q You testified yesterday there was a day in the summer
9 of 1994 when you learned that some -- you went to the
10 bankruptcy court and you learned that there was some logs
11 having been prepared. Do you remember that?
12 A The 341 hearings in the bankruptcy court.
13 Q Right.
14 A That I remember, yes.
15 Q But there were a lot of different days upon which the
16 341 hearings got adjourned and they were adjourned from
17 week to week to months, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So I'm talking about that 341 hearing occurred when
20 they were talking about the logs, right, that particular
21 time?
22 A Yes, I remember that.
23 Q And you remember the logs at that meeting Who's Who
24 agreed that it was going to keep logs, maintain the logs;
25 is that right?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1747
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A To the best of my recollection, the court
2 representatives, whatever their names are titled,
3 requested that the log would be represented for those two
4 facilities.
5 Q Mrs. Gaspar, the question was was there an agreement
6 as to whether they were going to present a log?
7 A Produce logs.
8 Q Did anyone say that the logs were already in
9 existence?
10 THE COURT: Well, by produce, you mean create
11 logs?
12 THE WITNESS: Create logs.
13 BY MR. TRABULUS:
14 Q Nobody said that the logs already existed for
15 previous months, did they?
16 A Something tells me there were supposed to be logs
17 maintained.
18 Q In the future; is that correct?
19 A Up to that point already.
20 Q Well, did somebody say that -- do you recall somebody
21 saying that there already were logs that had been in
22 existence for months or years or something like that?
23 A Are we keeping logs of the facilities and who attends
24 it and something to the effect, yes, we are keeping logs
25 or something to that effect.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1748
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Were going to or already had?
2 A They were already prepared.
3 Q In existence?
4 A Again, this is the best of my recollection.
5 Q Did anybody ask you -- this was a meeting in August
6 of 1994, correct?
7 A In the end of August sometime.
8 Q Well, was it not August 9, 1994?
9 A I cannot tell you the date.
10 Q Did you understand that from that date forward, Who's
11 Who was to maintain logs?
12 A I heard that was to be done, yes.
13 Q Somebody asked you to prepare logs for months before,
14 did they?
15 A Not from before August, no.
16 Q Okay.
17 So the logs that you were asked to maintain were
18 from looking forward from that date; is that correct?
19 MR. WHITE: Asked by whom?
20 THE WITNESS: By the --
21 MR. TRABULUS: Well, let's talk about it.
22 A By the bankruptcy -- people that were there.
23 Q Court.
24 A Court people.
25 Q That's the day when you say that you had this
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1749
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 conversation in the car; is that right?
2 A When we got in the car --
3 Q Yes or no, that's the same day?
4 A Yes.
5 Q That's all we're asking.
6 And you say that in the car you were told that
7 you had to be careful to make sure that the same people
8 weren't in two places -- I'm going to withdraw the
9 question.
10 You say that you were told that you had to be
11 careful that the logs didn't cross each other up, right,
12 that's your testimony?
13 A I was told not to use the same people and the same
14 location, the same day.
15 Q No, you were -- you say you were told not to use the
16 same people at the two different locations the same day;
17 is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q That's what you say you were told?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did you need to be told that? I mean, you are
22 intelligent.
23 A Yes.
24 Q If you were going to fake a log, you wouldn't be
25 needed to be told that?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1750
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A I would say so.
2 Q And the reason why you say you were told that is that
3 so that it wouldn't -- it couldn't be found out that the
4 logs were phonied, right, if you saw the same two people
5 at two different locations it couldn't be phony?
6 A That's right.
7 Q You were familiar with instances where Mr. Gordon
8 would travel from Lake Success and go into the city the
9 same day, right? Sometimes he would be in both offices on
10 the same day?
11 A So I heard, yes.
12 Q And in fact, people could have business meetings, the
13 same people could have business meetings in two different
14 locations the same day, right?
15 A It's a possibility.
16 Q Now, you say that at some point in time you showed
17 Mr. Gordon the logs, is that right, before they were sent
18 over to Mr. Ackerman's office, right?
19 A If I recall --
20 Q Yes or no?
21 A I did not show it to him.
22 Q You didn't show it to Mr. Gordon. Never?
23 A I can't answer that with a yes or a no.
24 Q You say "I did not show it to Mr. Gordon." Are you
25 saying you did or you didn't?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1751
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 A He saw them.
2 Q You say that he saw them.
3 You didn't show it to him but he saw them?
4 A Yes.
5 Q That's your testimony?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And he told you there were things that had to be
8 added to them, that's your testimony yesterday?
9 A Between him and Mr. Reffsin, yes.
10 Q And didn't you say that you showed them to Mr. Gordon
11 and he made some suggestions, right, I'm sorry, that he
12 saw them, that's your testimony?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And that he made some suggestions; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And you are saying that for him to make a suggestion
17 according to you he had to have actually looked at them?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And you saw him reading them, is that what your
20 testimony is?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And he read over those portions which had him in New
23 York on the days that you say that we've seen evidence
24 that he was in California, right?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1752
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And he said he didn't tell you to change that?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q This was the same man supposedly present could not
4 show the two logs, show the same people at the same place
5 on the same day, correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q -- Different.
8 Now, is it your testimony that you -- withdrawn.
9 Did you tell the people whose names were in the
10 logs that these phony logs were being maintained for phony
11 meetings and I was putting you down for a meeting on that
12 particular day?
13 Did you tell that to those people, yes or no?
14 A Yes.
15 Q You did.
16 And are you saying that Mr. Gordon and
17 Mr. Reffsin told you to tell these people?
18 A No.
19 Q You are saying -- now you understood, did you not,
20 according to your testimony from what you said that you
21 were doing something wrong, you felt bad about, right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And your bosses or your boss, I wouldn't say that, I
24 didn't mean to miss people. Your boss didn't tell you to
25 tell other people in the company about this; is that
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1753
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 right? That's your testimony?
2 A I can't answer that with a yes or no.
3 Q I just asked you, I think, whether they asked you to
4 tell other people in the company, and you said no; is that
5 correct?
6 A Only the people that knew about the logs.
7 Q Oh, they asked you to tell the other people who knew
8 about the logs?
9 A They did not.
10 Q They did not.
11 But you decided to broadcast among the other
12 people that their names were on some phony logs, that you
13 had prepared phony logs with their names on it, right?
14 You decided that on your own, right?
15 A It came in a conversation.
16 Q It came in a conversation.
17 You told each of them, did you?
18 A No, I did not.
19 Q I see.
20 Did you tell Agent Jordan that one of the times
21 he met with you that you had told each of them that?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you tell the other people whose names were in the
24 logs that they were in the logs?
25 A Not everybody in the log.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1754
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q I see.
2 Now, when Mr. -- When you say this conversation
3 occurred in the car, that was right after the bankruptcy
4 court, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And there still would be time to hold real meetings
7 if you wanted to, right?
8 A Explain, please.
9 Q You had been to a meeting at the penthouse that
10 Mr. Gordon called and a lot of people really didn't want
11 to go, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And he got them to go there, right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And the Sterling, the penthouse was only about seven
16 minutes away from Sterling, right? I think we testified
17 to that, right?
18 A Ten minutes.
19 Q Seven or ten minutes away.
20 And the one at Searingtown, that was somewhere
21 between ten and 20 minutes away by car, right?
22 A Somewhere around there.
23 Q And the people that came to Lake Success, they all
24 drove, came by car?
25 A Yes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1755
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q And did you suggest to them that, gee, maybe we ought
2 to instead of faking these logs, maybe we ought to just
3 have meetings there, there is no problem doing that? You
4 didn't suggest that to them, right?
5 Yes or no, madam?
6 A No.
7 Q And you are saying that that never occurred to them.
8 They just decided they would commit a fraud?
9 MR. WHITE: Objection.
10 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
11 MR. TRABULUS: Withdrawn, Your Honor.
12 BY MR. TRABULUS:
13 Q Now, you got a call from Mr. Reffsin, did you not, on
14 the day when he said we need those logs?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And up to that point in time, according to your
17 testimony yesterday, you hadn't done a thing to prepare
18 logs, right?
19 A No, I did not.
20 Q You hadn't done what you've been told to do, right?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q And if your boss found out about that, that you
23 hadn't been maintaining the logs you were supposed to, you
24 could have been in trouble, right?
25 A I'm pretty sure --
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1756
Gasper-cross/Trabulus
1 Q Yes or no?
2 A No.
3 Q No, he wouldn't have cared, right?
4 A I think he was aware of it.
5 Q Oh, he was aware that you weren't doing what you were
6 supposed to be doing?
7 A That the logs weren't being done.
8 Q And he was aware of that.
9 Of course at that point in time it's your
10 testimony -- you could not have gone back and
11 reconstructed who really had been at different places at
12 particular times, right?
13 A Not going back a month and-a-half.
14 Q Not at that point in time.
15 So you had to cover yourself, didn't you, from
16 what you hadn't done, right?
17 A I cannot answer that, sir. I cannot answer that.
18 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
19 THE COURT: Anything else.
20 MR. JENKS: I'm going to question.
21 Your Honor, Counsel is suggesting that perhaps it
22 is time for a break.
23 THE COURT: Not yet. I appreciate the
24 suggestion.
25 (Continued.)
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1757
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. JENKS:
3 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, you are getting a benefit by
4 testifying here today, aren't you?
5 A Yes, I believe so.
6 Q Well, the benefit you would be getting is not being
7 named as a codefendant in an obstruction of justice count
8 along with Mr. Gordon and with Mr. Reffsin; am I correct?
9 A That's too much terminology for me to understand it,
10 sir.
11 Q Well, the benefit that you are getting is that the
12 people at this table have chosen to give you immunity; am
13 I correct?
14 A That I know is true.
15 Q So you are getting a benefit of not being charged
16 with a crime for your preparation of these false usage
17 logs; am I right?
18 A If you say so, yes.
19 Q Well, I don't say so. It's what you say. I only ask
20 the questions.
21 Are you getting a benefit by your testimony here
22 today?
23 A By saying the truth, yes.
24 Q By saying the truth.
25 These people here (indicating) have given you
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1758
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 immunity for you to testify; am I right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You understand what immunity is, correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Tell the jury what your understanding is of the
6 immunity that you got from Mr. White.
7 A By telling him, by telling everybody the truth, I
8 cannot be punished or suffer any consequences by producing
9 those logs that I produced under the instructions of two
10 different people.
11 Q Well, you produced the logs yourself, correct?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin didn't pull a gun out on
14 you to write down the false information on the logs, did
15 they?
16 A No, they didn't.
17 Q You did it on your own, correct?
18 A Would I have a reason to do it?
19 Q Did you do it on your own, ma'am?
20 Yes or no?
21 A Under the instructions I did.
22 Q In your handwriting you created these logs, right?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q Mr. Gordon's handwriting is not on the logs, is it?
25 A No, it's not.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1759
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 Q Mr. Reffsin's handwriting is not on these logs, is
2 it?
3 A No, it's not.
4 Q Let me make sure I understand. Let's backtrack a
5 minute.
6 You came to Who's Who Worldwide in the fall of
7 1993?
8 A In the winter of '93.
9 Q Winter of '93.
10 And you stayed for approximately ten months until
11 October of '94, right?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And the logs were created sometime in August of '94?
14 A I don't remember the date.
15 Q But you created them, correct?
16 A I did create them.
17 Q Okay.
18 You say you faxed them to Mr. Reffsin for his
19 review; am I right?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q And that he faxed them back to you, correct?
22 A That he called me.
23 Q He called you.
24 How many times did you fax the logs to
25 Mr. Reffsin?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1760
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 A To my recollection, once -- twice. The draft and the
2 final.
3 Q Did he fax anything back to you with any corrections?
4 A I can't recall.
5 Q Can you point to any documents in this voluminous
6 pile of discovery with any notes where either Gordon or
7 Reffsin were instructing you to prepare these false logs?
8 MR. WHITE: Objection.
9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10 A No, but if there is an itemized phone bill you will
11 be able to see that occurred.
12 Q If there was an itemized phone bill.
13 What will the bill show us, that there was a
14 telephone call between --
15 A There was a fax.
16 Q -- There was a fax between Reffsin's office and you
17 or Who's Who Worldwide, correct?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Would it show us that that fax involved the
20 production of the logs in this case?
21 A No, but I would say you can transmit and see the time
22 and the transmission of those sheets to be equivalent to
23 the time of the transmission that that fax would show.
24 Q Well, there's no date on those logs, is there? There
25 is no date they were prepared, correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1761
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 A They were prepared the date they were faxed to that
2 attorney in Rifkin Radler's office.
3 Q Would it not be a fact that the fact that there was a
4 fax from Who's Who Worldwide to Reffsin would be worthless
5 in terms of showing that Reffsin knew about the production
6 or the creation of these logs, correct?
7 MR. WHITE: Objection. Exactly to characterize
8 what would be evidence or not.
9 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
10 BY MR. JENKS:
11 Q Let me ask you this. There is not a scrap of paper
12 -- withdrawn.
13 Can you show me anything that Mr. Gordon wrote on
14 paper anywhere in this courtroom instructing you to
15 prepare false usage logs? Can you do that?
16 A Sir, I did not characterize --
17 Q Yes or no?
18 A No.
19 Q Can you show me a piece of paper where Gordon
20 instructs you to prepare these false logs?
21 A No.
22 Q Can you show me a piece of paper, even the sides of a
23 matchbook, where Reffsin instructs you to prepare these
24 false usage logs?
25 A No.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1762
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 Q Anyone else in the company?
2 A No.
3 MR. JENKS: May I have the immunity order,
4 Mr. White, the original. 3500-4C.
5 Just one moment, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Sure.
7 BY MR. JENKS:
8 Q This is Government's Exhibit 805 for Identification
9 (handing.)
10 You can take it out of the plastic sleeve,
11 Ms. Gaspar.
12 I'm showing you what has previously been marked
13 as Government's Exhibit 805 for Identification. Do you
14 recognize that, Ms. Gaspar?
15 A (Perusing.) I don't remember seeing this.
16 Q Well, would it be fair to say that that's the
17 immunity order that you received from the United States
18 Government in this case?
19 Read it over and take your time.
20 A (Perusing.) It looks likes that's what it is.
21 Q You've seen that document before, have you not?
22 A I truthfully don't recall.
23 Q Does it have your name on the document?
24 A Yes, my name is here.
25 Q And it says order; am I correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1763
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 A Yes.
2 Q And in that document it refers to you, Maria Gaspar;
3 am I right?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q You discussed your immunity order with your attorney,
6 right?
7 A Something was said --
8 Q You discussed it.
9 Well, your attorney told you that you had
10 immunity, correct?
11 A Yes, something to that effect.
12 Q All right.
13 MR. JENKS: I'm going to offer that document in
14 evidence, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. WHITE: No, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Government's Exhibit 805 in evidence.
18 (Government's Exhibit 805 received in evidence.)
19 BY MR. JENKS:
20 Q I want you to take a look at that document,
21 Ms. Gaspar, and I want you to read it through with me,
22 okay.
23 It says in that document that "on motion of the
24 United States Attorney for the Eastern District of New
25 York, on February 13, 1997." Correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1764
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 A Umm-hmm.
2 Q That's the heading of the document; am I right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q The first paragraph.
5 A Yes.
6 Q "February 13, 1997. Maria Gaspar has been subpoenaed
7 to testify before a grand jury."
8 Do you see that?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q And "that it is likely that she will refuse to
11 testify based upon her privilege against
12 self-incrimination." Is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Prior to your refusing to testify in the grand jury,
15 you had conversations with your attorney; am I correct?
16 A Once, I believe.
17 Q And your attorney was Mr. Nicolisi?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And he's a criminal defense lawyer?
20 A He's a lawyer, I don't know.
21 THE COURT: How do you spell Mr. Nicolisi?
22 THE WITNESS: N-i-c-o-l-i-s-i.
23 BY MR. JENKS:
24 Q You had conversations with Mr. Nicolisi, correct?
25 A I had once.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1765
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 Q And you had conversations with the United States
2 Government, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q You had conversations, I think you told us, in the
5 summer of 1995; is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q The first meeting with Agent Jordan at the Huntington
8 Townhouse, correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And then you had a second meeting with the United
11 States Government sometime in 1996, right?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q And in 19 -- when did you have the second meeting in
14 1996?
15 A In the beginning of the year.
16 Q January or February of 1996?
17 A Somewhere around there.
18 Q And Inspector Biegelman was present; am I correct?
19 Do you remember Inspector Biegelman?
20 A I remember the name but I don't remember the first
21 name.
22 Q Would it be fair to say that he was present at the
23 second meeting?
24 A It's a possibility.
25 Q And Mr. White was present at that meeting, the
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1766
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 prosecutor in this case?
2 A Yes, he was.
3 Q And you testified that it was at that meeting that
4 the United States Government told you that you should
5 contact an attorney?
6 A No, it was not.
7 Q But you contacted an attorney at that meeting; am I
8 correct?
9 A No, I did not.
10 Q Did you not testify just moments ago when
11 Mr. Trabulus was questioning you that you had telephoned
12 Mr. Nicolisi from that meeting?
13 A I called Mr. Nicolisi from the Huntington Townhouse
14 and that meeting took place in the Hicksville office, so
15 obviously, definitely it was not at that meeting, sir.
16 Q You testified you spoke with Mr. Nicolisi from the
17 first meeting at the Huntington Townhouse, is that your
18 testimony?
19 A No. No. No. Maybe the fourth meeting I had with
20 the agents.
21 Q Wait a second. Time out.
22 You told me, you told this jury that you had two
23 meetings with the United States government, correct?
24 A No, I had four meetings.
25 Q How many meetings?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1767
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 A I had four meetings if I recollect.
2 Q Let's go through the four meetings.
3 The first meeting was at the Huntington
4 Townhouse; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And that was with two IRS agents; am I correct?
7 A Something, yes.
8 Q Did anyone suggest to you at that meeting that you
9 might be involved in criminal activity?
10 A No.
11 Q All right.
12 You had a second meeting, correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q When was the second meeting?
15 A In the Hicksville Post Office.
16 Q All right.
17 And that was sometime in January --
18 A January of --
19 Q Of 1990 --
20 A 1996.
21 Q At that second meeting Mr. White was present and
22 Inspector Biegelman was present, correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And you know that Inspector Biegelman is in charge of
25 the mail fraud investigation in this case. Did you know
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1768
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 that?
2 A I knew he was involved in the post office or
3 something, but I didn't know exactly the title that he
4 has.
5 Q Who else was present besides Mr. White and Inspector
6 Biegelman at the second meeting?
7 A Maybe the lady behind you -- maybe. I'm not sure if
8 that's the case.
9 Q Ms. Scott.
10 A I don't know her name.
11 Q You don't know Ms. Scott?
12 A Ceci, the lady behind you.
13 Q Ms. Scott?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, there came a time -- withdrawn.
16 At that second meeting did Mr. White suggest to
17 you that maybe you were involved in some criminal activity
18 with preparation of these false logs?
19 A Nothing was said.
20 Q You told him about you creating these false logs; am
21 I right?
22 A It was simply conversations that he had. The
23 questions and answers.
24 MR. JENKS: You have to answer the question,
25 okay. I ask the question, listen to the question, you
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1769
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 provide the answer. Okay?
2 I move to strike the last answer, Your Honor, as
3 nonresponsive.
4 THE COURT: Motion granted. Strike it out.
5 BY MR. JENKS:
6 Q Did you tell Mr. White and Inspector Biegelman at
7 that second meeting that you were involved in the
8 preparation of false usage logs to the penthouse and to
9 the condominium?
10 A I believe I told them that I had made the log, yes.
11 Q Did they suggest to you that perhaps you should
12 consult a lawyer because you were involved in criminal
13 wrongdoing?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q All right.
16 Did there come a time you had another meeting
17 with the government?
18 A Yes, there was another meeting. I would say roughly
19 another six months later also at the Huntington Townhouse
20 and at that point that's when they suggested that I should
21 contact an attorney.
22 Q Six months later there was a meeting at the
23 Huntington Townhouse, correct, according to you?
24 A Correct.
25 Q So that would be sometime in the middle of 1996?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1770
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 A July or somewhere around there.
2 Q Who suggested that you should contact an attorney?
3 A Either all of them or one of them, I cannot tell you.
4 Q Well, let's find out who was there at the third
5 meeting.
6 A Mr. White, Mr. Jordan and I believe Mr. Pagano.
7 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I don't have in my 3500
8 materials, notes, if any, pertaining to that meeting.
9 MR. TRABULUS: I have it. It may not have been
10 given to Mr. Jenks.
11 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, everything was given to
12 everybody.
13 THE COURT: I'm sure it was. Mr. Jenks didn't
14 indicate that he didn't get the notes, correct, Mr.
15 Jenks?
16 MR. WHITE: He sure did, Your Honor.
17 MR. JENKS: I'm asking if there was any
18 handwritten notes of the meeting and whether they were
19 provided.
20 MR. TRABULUS: I'm sorry.
21 MR. JENKS: I said handwritten notes.
22 THE COURT: Are there any handwritten notes of
23 that meeting, Mr. White?
24 MR. WHITE: Your Honor that's the issue we raised
25 this morning. We haven't been able to determine yet
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1771
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 whether or not there were.
2 THE COURT: All right. Now it's time for a
3 recess, Mr. Jenks. Is that all right with you?
4 MR. JENKS: Yes, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Members of the jury, we'll
6 take a ten minute recess.
7 Please don't discuss the case. Please keep an
8 open mind. Please recess yourselves.
9 You may step down, Ms. Gaspar, if you would like.
10 (Recess taken.)
11 (Jury enters.)
12 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
13 jury.
14 You may proceed, Mr. Jenks.
15 MR. JENKS: Thank you, Your Honor.
16 BY MR. JENKS:
17 Q Ms. Gaspar, when we left off we were talking about
18 the third meeting you had with the government.
19 A Yes.
20 Q And that meeting was in July of 1996; is that
21 correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Who was present at that meeting from the government?
24 A Mr. White, Mr. Gordon and I believe Mr. Pagano.
25 Q And there were three members from the government
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1772
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 present at that meeting, correct?
2 A That I recall, yes.
3 Q And did you have an attorney yet at that point?
4 A No, I did not.
5 Q So you met with the government three times to discuss
6 your involvement in this case and the government had let
7 you come in to talk to them on three separate occasions
8 without letting you have an attorney; is that correct?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q At the meeting in July of 1996, the government
11 suggested that you get an attorney?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Mr. White suggested that, didn't he?
14 A One of the members, maybe Mr. White.
15 Q Mr. White is the lead prosecutor in this case, isn't
16 he?
17 A Maybe it was him.
18 Q You were dealing with him all along, Mr. White?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And by the way, since you left Who's Who Worldwide in
21 the fall of 1994, October of 1994, have you had any
22 further contact with Mr. Gordon or Mr. Reffsin?
23 A No.
24 Q None at all, correct?
25 A No.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1773
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 Q All right.
2 At the third meeting it comes up that you should
3 get an attorney; am I right?
4 A Correct.
5 Q And you believed that Mr. White suggests that to you?
6 A At that point I said "what's the reason?"
7 MR. JENKS: Ma'am, you have to answer my
8 questions. Once again this is the way it works. I ask
9 the question, you listen to the question and you provide
10 the answer.
11 Your Honor, I would ask that portion be stricken,
12 her last response, the limited response.
13 THE COURT: May I hear the question and answer,
14 please.
15 (Record read.)
16 THE COURT: That motion is granted. The answer
17 is stricken.
18 BY MR. JENKS:
19 Q Mr. White suggested that you get a criminal attorney,
20 correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Mr. White suggested that you get a criminal attorney
23 because you might have criminal problems concerning your
24 preparation of those false usage logs; am I right?
25 Yes or no?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1774
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 A I cannot answer that question with a yes or a no.
2 Q Well, Mr. White told you that you could be prosecuted
3 for what you had done concerning those logs? Did he tell
4 you that?
5 A I don't recall that being said.
6 Q Well, you went out and you got a criminal attorney
7 after that meeting; am I right?
8 A Right in their presence.
9 Q You picked up the telephone in their presence and you
10 called a lawyer, correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And you called the lawyer because you were afraid at
13 that point; am I right?
14 A Because I was advised to get an attorney.
15 Q Well, were you afraid of the government at that point
16 for prosecuting you?
17 A No.
18 Q Did they say that they might consider prosecuting you
19 for what you had done?
20 A No.
21 Can I answer that in a different manner?
22 Q Sure, go ahead.
23 A As a matter of fact I contacted the attorney and I
24 said to him exactly what I was -- exactly who was in my
25 presence, and I said would you kindly talk to the
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1775
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 gentleman and see what this is all about because I have no
2 clue.
3 Q Oh. You had no clue while you were sitting there
4 even though you had prepared false logs, correct? That's
5 your testimony, you had no clue?
6 A That I had prepared the logs, bogus logs, yes.
7 Q You had no clue even though you had testified
8 previously in a bankruptcy proceeding; am I correct?
9 A Umm-hmm. Yes.
10 Q When you testified in the bankruptcy proceeding, it
11 would be fair to say that you didn't tell the truth
12 either, right?
13 A I did tell the truth.
14 Q In the bankruptcy proceeding your testimony is that
15 you told the truth?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did the government ever tell you that it did not
18 believe what you said in the bankruptcy proceeding?
19 MR. WHITE: What bankruptcy proceedings are we
20 talking about?
21 MR. JENKS: The Who's Who Worldwide.
22 MR. WHITE: What are you asking the witness
23 testified?
24 MR. JENKS: Your Honor, I don't want to have any
25 colloquy with Mr. White on the record.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1776
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 THE COURT: I don't blame you. If he has an
2 objection let him say it. Let him not get into these
3 discussions.
4 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have an objection
5 then. I would like to clarify what he's asking the
6 witness about.
7 THE COURT: May I hear the last question.
8 (Record read.)
9 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, it's the last series of
10 questions.
11 MR. JENKS: I'll withdraw the questions, Your
12 Honor, and let me start again.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 BY MR. JENKS:
15 Q You testified that you had no clue as to what you
16 were having to get an attorney for?
17 A I was advised to get an attorney.
18 Q Because they told you you were in trouble; am I
19 right?
20 A At this point it was suggested to contact an
21 attorney.
22 Q Was it suggested by them that you may be in trouble?
23 A Possibly.
24 Q So that's why you called the attorney, correct?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1777
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 Q So you had a clue that you were in trouble because
2 you prepared false logs, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q So you called the attorney and -- withdrawn.
5 After you called the attorney, did you have
6 another meeting with the government?
7 A I believe I did with Mr. Nicolisi present.
8 Q Now, your attorney comes in for the fourth meeting
9 with the government?
10 A Yes.
11 Q You were present at that meeting as well?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Mr. White was at that meeting, correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And Mr. White, would it be fair to say, tells your
16 attorney unless you come on board with the government and
17 agree to testify against Gordon and Reffsin, you are
18 getting prosecuted with obstruction of justice for the
19 creation of those logs; is that right?
20 A I cannot answer that with a yes or no.
21 Q Well, then tell me what your understanding was at the
22 last meeting with your attorney?
23 A My understanding was that if I would tell the Court
24 what I've been telling them which was the truth, I would
25 not be prosecuted for those logs.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1778
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 Q Your understanding was that you could be prosecuted
2 for those logs, correct?
3 A There was a possibility.
4 Q And that you could be facing a jail sentence under
5 the United States Sentencing Code, correct?
6 A That's what I understood at that time.
7 Q On that day, right?
8 A Umm-hmm.
9 Q Mr. White explained to you that if you played ball
10 with the government and agreed to testify against Gordon
11 and Reffsin, you won't have any problem, right?
12 A I object to that, play ball. I don't play ball, I
13 simply tell the truth.
14 Q All right.
15 Mr. White suggested to you -- well, you simply
16 tell the truth. You didn't tell the truth when you
17 created the false usage logs, did you?
18 A I was told by --
19 Q Did you tell the truth --
20 MR. WHITE: I object. She didn't finish the
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I did a piece of paper --
23 THE COURT: Stop. The answer calls for a yes or
24 no. Did you tell the truth? Doesn't it?
25 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the witness can finish
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1779
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 the answer.
2 THE COURT: No, I'm asking you the question,
3 doesn't it?
4 MR. WHITE: Yes, it does.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Please be seated.
6 Did you tell the truth when you made out the
7 logs? Yes or no?
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 BY MR. JENKS:
10 Q So we know that you are capable of lying, correct?
11 A I can not answer that with a yes or no.
12 Q You can't answer that with a yes or no.
13 A I was given instructions to do that, sir.
14 Q When you created the letter --
15 THE COURT: And you are following instructions,
16 good. Now you are doing that.
17 THE WITNESS: I was following instructions.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 THE WITNESS: I was simply following
20 instructions.
21 THE COURT: By me?
22 THE WITNESS: Right.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I just want to make clear
24 whose instructions you were following.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1780
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 BY MR. JENKS:
3 Q When you created the letter stating that Gordon had a
4 compensation agreement with Who's Who Worldwide since
5 January of 1993, were you telling the truth in that
6 letter?
7 A I cannot answer that with a yes or no.
8 Q You can't answer -- when you prepared that letter,
9 ma'am, did you believe it to be true that Gordon had a
10 compensation agreement with Who's Who Worldwide since
11 January 1, 1993?
12 Yes or no?
13 A I was told -- I was told yes there was a compensation
14 agreement.
15 Q Did you ever see the compensation agreement?
16 A I never saw it, no. I was told that there was a
17 document in the office, but I never saw it.
18 Q All right.
19 You never bothered to look for it and examine it
20 before you signed your name to a document stating that
21 Gordon had a compensation agreement?
22 A I was not given the privilege of looking at the
23 document or seeing the document.
24 Q Did you ask to see it?
25 A I was told it was locked.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1781
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 Q Did you ask to see the document?
2 A Yes, I said I would like to see the document. It's
3 in the office and it is locked.
4 Q So without seeing the document, you prepared a letter
5 stating that Gordon had a compensation agreement with
6 Who's Who Worldwide, correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, let's go back to the meeting with you and
9 Mr. Nicolisi, your attorney and Mr. White.
10 The subject of immunity comes up in that last
11 meeting, does it not?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And in fact, would it be fair to say that Mr. White
14 tells you that the government is prepared to make an
15 application to get you immunity?
16 A It's a possibility. I do not recall it.
17 Q Did you understand at that meeting that if you would
18 agree to testify for the government, you would not be
19 charged with any crime? Would that be fair to say?
20 A That's what I was made to understand, yes.
21 Q In fact, you were made to understand if you didn't
22 agree to testify with the government, Mr. White was going
23 to add you as a defendant in the obstruction count with
24 Gordon and Reffsin, correct?
25 A I didn't get that far in the discussion, so I cannot
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1782
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 answer that.
2 Q Well, you knew at that point that going there with
3 your attorney that you had a criminal problem, right?
4 A Uhm, yes.
5 Q You knew you had exposure that you could get charged
6 with a crime, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q So you went there with your attorney to cut a deal
9 with the United States Government, did you not?
10 A To simply tell the truth.
11 Q To cut a deal, correct?
12 A Uhm, I don't call that a deal.
13 Q You don't call it a deal that you got a free walk
14 from prosecution in the case by getting immunity from
15 Mr. White? You don't call that a deal?
16 A I was simply telling the truth. Before, way before I
17 was even approached to bring in an attorney in this
18 situation and what I had volunteered told them stood up to
19 the present moment.
20 Q Did you make a deal with the United States Attorney
21 at that meeting to testify for them against Gordon and
22 Reffsin?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And in exchange for that deal or your testimony that
25 the government was going to get, they were going to give
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1783
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 you immunity, correct?
2 A That's the understanding.
3 Q And that's what in fact you got, correct?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q They scratched your back; you scratch their back?
6 A Let's just put it in a different way.
7 Q Well, you agreed to do something for them and they
8 agreed to make sure that you stay home with your husband
9 and 18 year-old son and continue on with your life, right?
10 A That's better.
11 Q You don't expect to go to jail for what you've done?
12 A No.
13 Q You don't expect to get prosecuted for a felony?
14 A No.
15 Q Have you been charged with any crime from Mr. White
16 in your participation in creating these logs?
17 A No.
18 Q Do you expect, as you sit here today, to be charged
19 with any crime by anyone in the United States Government?
20 A No.
21 Q In fact, look at Government's Exhibit 805 in front of
22 you and let's read it along. It says at bottom of the
23 page "it is ordered pursuant to 18 U.S. Code Section 6002
24 that Maria Gaspar give testimony or provide other
25 information which she refuses to give or provide on her
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1784
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 basis of her privilege against self-incrimination as to
2 all matters as to which she may be interrogated before the
3 grand jury."
4 Do you see that portion?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And it further says "in any further proceedings
7 resulting therefrom or ancillary thereto."
8 A Yes.
9 Q It says "no testimony or information compelled under
10 this order (or any information directly or indirectly
11 derived from such testimony or other information) may be
12 used against the witness in any criminal case."
13 Do you see that?
14 A Yes, I do.
15 Q So, in other words, what you got while you're
16 testifying here today is use immunity; am I correct?
17 A That's my understanding.
18 Q Do you have any other understandings with the United
19 States Government besides your getting immunity here
20 today?
21 A No.
22 Q Has Mr. White given you a wink and a node that you
23 will not be prosecuted for anything that you have done
24 concerning Who's Who Worldwide?
25 A Absolutely not.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1785
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 Q He has not told you as a representative of the
2 government that he will not prosecute you for what you've
3 done?
4 A Regarding the logs?
5 Q Regarding the logs or anything else.
6 A No. Once I say the truth, that's what I'm supposed
7 to say.
8 Q Once you say the truth as determined by Mr. White to
9 be the truth, correct?
10 A And my honesty.
11 Q Mr. White determines what the truth is in this case
12 as far as you're concerned, isn't that so?
13 Is that so? Yes or no?
14 A No.
15 Q Who determines whether or not you've told the truth
16 under this immunity order here, Mr. White or the lawyers
17 sitting over here (indicating)?
18 A If I had volunteered --
19 MR. JENKS: Your Honor --
20 A Mr. White.
21 Q Mr. White determines whether you tell the truth,
22 right?
23 A Correct.
24 Q So therefore, if Mr. White doesn't believe you told
25 the truth, you could be prosecuted, correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1786
Gasper-cross/Jenks
1 A Correct.
2 Q It says that in here, right? It says "except the
3 prosecution for perjury, giving a false statement or
4 otherwise failing to comply with this order."
5 Do you see that, right?
6 A Umm-hmm.
7 Q In other words, you use immunity in that Mr. White
8 can't use your testimony here today against you in a
9 criminal case, right? You understand that?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q But that doesn't preclude him from prosecuting you
12 under this order for perjury or giving a false statement,
13 does it?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And the person that sits and determines whether or
16 not you perjured yourself here is Mr. White and Ms. Scott,
17 right? They determine it?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And so they have to be happy with what you have to
20 say here in front of this jury, correct?
21 A I would say so.
22 MR. JENKS: I have nothing further, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 Anybody else.
25 MR. SCHOER: Yes, Your Honor.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1787
Gasper-cross/Schoer
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SCHOER:
3 Q Ms. Gaspar, you testified yesterday concerning the
4 American Express bills; is that correct?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Do you remember that? You were looking at them
7 yesterday?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And you testified concerning handwritten notations
10 that were on the American Express bills?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Those were handwritten notations made by Liz Sautter;
13 is that correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And if you remember some of those -- I think you
16 mentioned that there was the letter T, referring to
17 somebody who made charges on her card?
18 A The letter T?
19 Q Yes. You said there was a letter L, there was a
20 letter B relating to Mr. --
21 A There were initials. I don't recall exactly which
22 ones they were.
23 Q Do you know whether she had a sister named Teresa?
24 A I don't know.
25 Q Okay.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1788
Gasper-cross/Schoer
1 Did you ever receive any checks from Tara with
2 respect to anything that was done on Liz Sautter's credit
3 card?
4 A Not that I remember.
5 Q Okay.
6 So if there is a reference to "T" in those credit
7 card bills, that wouldn't have anything to do with Tara
8 Garboski?
9 A I don't think Tara had anything to do with the credit
10 card, if that's what you are alleging.
11 Q I'm asking you.
12 A No.
13 Q Now, you indicated that Liz Sautter was the most
14 trusted employee of Bruce Gordon; is that correct?
15 A To my knowledge, it was, yes.
16 Q And she made certain decisions; isn't that correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And before you were there, she handled the duties you
19 handled once you were at Who's Who?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And after you left, she, as far as you know, handled
22 those duties as well, isn't that so?
23 A I trained her to continue doing it. What happened
24 afterwards, I have no clue.
25 Q Mr. Gordon, would you say he was a hands-on employer?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1789
Gasper-cross/Schoer
1 A To what respect?
2 Q With respect to all decisions that were made at Who's
3 Who.
4 A Absolutely.
5 Q And I think you testified that he basically approved
6 every check that was written on Who's Who and all other
7 corporations.
8 A Every check from any corporation was signed only by
9 Mr. Gordon.
10 Q And only after he told you to write the check, isn't
11 that so?
12 A He would give me the instructions. I would generate
13 the check, give him the check back, each one of the
14 checks, and any bills or whatever would be the support,
15 the amount of the check and the check and give it to him
16 for signature.
17 Q As far as you knew he was making similar detailed
18 decisions concerning what administration was doing; isn't
19 that correct?
20 A He was very much involved with everything.
21 Q I'm asking you a question.
22 A Yes.
23 Q As far as you knew, he was making similar detailed
24 decisions with respect to what administration was doing,
25 the people in administration; isn't that correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1790
Gasper-cross/Schoer
1 Yes or no? Correct?
2 A I was not working in administration. I would say
3 yes.
4 Q Okay.
5 And as far as you knew, he was making similar
6 detailed decisions with respect to the duties and
7 functions of the people that were in Public Affairs,
8 Public Relations, isn't that so?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And as far as you knew, he was making similar
11 detailed decisions with respect to the people that were in
12 sales; isn't that correct?
13 A Oh, definitely.
14 Q You testified yesterday on direct examination
15 concerning the fact that Mr. Gordon had a car, a corporate
16 car; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And there were other people that had corporate cars
19 as well, isn't that so?
20 A I recall some, yes.
21 Q Liz Sautter had a corporate car?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Debra Benjamin?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Tara Garboski didn't have a corporate car, did she?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1791
Gasper-cross/Schoer
1 A No. No. No.
2 Q You testified there came a time when Mr. Gordon
3 wanted to reduce the monthly fee that Marty Reffsin was
4 receiving, is that correct, and Mr. Reffsin got upset?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Do you know when that was?
7 A I can't tell you. Sometime probably in the spring of
8 '94, but I really don't know the date.
9 Q Did there come a time when you had conversations with
10 Mr. Gordon or anyone else that he wanted to reduce the
11 salaries of Tara Garboski?
12 A I don't recall.
13 Q But it may have happened?
14 A It could have happened. It could have happened, but
15 I'm not -- I can't tell you the specifics.
16 Q Now, you testified on cross-examination by
17 Mr. Trabulus that the people who were named in the logs
18 that you prepared, those false logs, that you told some of
19 those people about the fact that they were in those logs;
20 isn't that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Did you tell Debra Benjamin about the fact that she
23 was in the log?
24 A Debra Benjamin was one of the people I mentioned it
25 to.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1792
Gasper-cross/Schoer
1 Q Did you mention it to Liz Sautter?
2 A Liz Sautter, yes, I did.
3 Q Did you mention it to Suzanne Konopka?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q Did you mention it to Tracey Coletti?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you mention it to Tara Garboski?
8 A I don't recall.
9 Q You remember the others, but you don't remember that,
10 right?
11 A I don't even remember having a conversation with the
12 four people that you mentioned.
13 Q And that was at one time that you had that
14 conversation or everybody together?
15 A Liz Sautter was on an occasion by itself. Debra
16 Benjamin, Suzanne and Tracey, I recall they were having
17 lunch and I happen to be taking a copy of the document to
18 fax over to Mr. Reffsin, if I recall correctly.
19 Q Do you recall if those were the one time that you had
20 a discussion with them?
21 A Yes, those would be one time.
22 Q You indicated that you had no ownership interest in
23 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And you had no financial interest in Who's Who
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1793
Gasper-cross/Nelson
1 Worldwide; is that correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And therefore you had -- you testified you had no
4 reason to make falsehoods; is that correct?
5 A Absolutely.
6 Q Did Tara Garboski have an ownership interest in Who's
7 Who Worldwide?
8 A Not that I know of.
9 MR. SCHOER: Nothing further.
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. NELSON:
12 Q Did Tara Garboski have a financial interest in Who's
13 Who?
14 A Not that I know, just an employee.
15 Q She was an employee?
16 A Yes.
17 Q She had no reason to falsify documents on behalf of
18 Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
19 A Not that I know of.
20 Q I believe it was your testimony that you became
21 employed at Who's Who Worldwide in approximately December
22 of 1992?
23 A '93.
24 Q And you left the company on October of 1994; is that
25 correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1794
Gasper-cross/Nelson
1 A That's correct.
2 Q So you were working for the company for approximately
3 ten months?
4 A Approximately.
5 Q During the period you were employed at Who's Who
6 Worldwide, did you ever come to know an individual by the
7 name of Oral Frank Osman?
8 A Who?
9 Q Oral Frank Osman.
10 A The name doesn't sound familiar.
11 Q I represent an individual by the name of Frank Osman,
12 also known as Frank Martin, seated over here with the
13 white hair.
14 Have you ever met that gentleman?
15 A Frank Martin. The name sounds familiar, but I never
16 really remember seeing him that much.
17 Q Did you ever remember seeing him at Who's Who
18 Worldwide while you were an employee there?
19 A There's a possibility that I saw. We used to work in
20 the other sales areas, maybe. Maybe I seen him once or
21 twice but I'm not really very sure of the face.
22 Q During the ten-month period of time you were employed
23 at Who's Who Worldwide, approximately how many group
24 managers were there, if you recall?
25 A Group leaders?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1795
Gasper-cross/Nelson
1 Q That's correct.
2 A How many?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Four, five. I don't really know. It was an area
5 that I really wasn't very much involved.
6 Q Do you remember who any of those individuals were?
7 A I remember some of them.
8 Q Who were them?
9 A Tara was one. There was this guy Bob, Bob Lamb,
10 L-a-m-b, I believe it was. There was another gentleman
11 that I can't remember his name, he was kind of chunky and
12 short, Michavel something. It's really difficult for me to
13 really come up with the group leaders.
14 Q Do you remember Frank Martin as being a group leader
15 during the period of time that you were working at Who's
16 Who Worldwide?
17 A Not necessarily.
18 Q Okay.
19 And do you see any of the other group leaders
20 beside Tara present here in the courtroom today?
21 A I don't think so. I don't think -- Laura, I don't
22 think she was a group leader. I don't recall seeing
23 anybody else here as a group leader.
24 Q During that ten-month period of time you were
25 employed at Who's Who Worldwide, did the sales staff
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1796
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1 remain the same, grow larger or fluctuate in any manner?
2 A Big turnover.
3 Q There were a lot of people turning over on some
4 regular basis?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And did the size of the sales staff increase at all?
7 A On and off, you know, basically the same amount that
8 I can think of.
9 Q Am I correct that the company expanded during the
10 period of time that you were working there and that
11 Sterling opened while you were an employee of Who's Who
12 Worldwide?
13 A Sterling was a different identity altogether. As far
14 as the people in Who's Who Worldwide, to the best of my
15 recollection, there were about basically -- the number
16 would fluctuate but not that much.
17 Q So the company remained generally the same size but
18 there was a fair amount of turnover; is that correct?
19 A To the best of my knowledge.
20 MR. NELSON: Thank you. I have no further
21 questions.
22 THE COURT: Anybody else?
23 MR. NEVILLE: Yes.
24 (Continued.)
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1797
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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. NEVILLE:
3 Q Good afternoon, ma'am. My name is Jim Neville. I
4 represent Scott Michavelson.
5 A Did you lose a lot of weight?
6 Yeah, okay. Now I remember him.
7 Q You testified to having four meetings with the
8 government personnel?
9 A That's correct, sir.
10 Q And the first meeting took place at the Huntington
11 Townhouse, you said?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q What is that, the Huntington Townhouse?
14 A A catering house. You don't know the name? Haven't
15 you been there?
16 Q No, I confess.
17 You went to a catering house with the government
18 agents?
19 A No, I used to be the comptroller-administrator of the
20 Huntington Townhouse.
21 Q I see.
22 And they came to where you worked?
23 A That's correct.
24 Q Do you remember what time of day it was when they
25 came?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1798
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1 A I don't remember.
2 Q How many of them came, do you remember?
3 A I believe three.
4 Q Three men in suits?
5 A I don't know what they were wearing. I know -- there
6 were three men.
7 Q Right.
8 And did they show you badges?
9 A Actually the secretary called me and told me there
10 were three gentlemen upstairs with badges coming down and
11 when they came down to my office they did show me the
12 badge, yes.
13 Q So your receptionist or secretary alerted you that
14 these three men with badges were coming down to see you;
15 is that right?
16 A It was like a split second between the time she
17 called me and the time they showed up.
18 Q So they just came in?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Did they knock when they came in?
21 A No, I actually had the door open.
22 Q Did they just walk through the open door?
23 A That is correct.
24 Q Did they ask to come in?
25 A Uhm, I actually opened the door and then I told them
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1799
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1 to come in.
2 Q Were they smiling when they came in?
3 A I can't tell you that.
4 Q Were you smiling when they came in?
5 A There was no comment or action, I don't think so.
6 Q Were you afraid?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you have any idea why three men with badges would
9 come down and walk into your office?
10 A Anything came to my mind because not long ago I had
11 immigration come to my office regarding an immigration
12 case. I had no clue why they were there.
13 Q Did they ask if they could sit down with you in your
14 office?
15 A Actually I was in the office with the owner of the
16 company which in the meantime passed away and I remember
17 one of the gentlemen was asking him permission to leave
18 the office and just leave me with him or else he would
19 have to be subpoenaed and serve as a witness in a
20 conversation that will be taking place.
21 Q I see.
22 And so your boss who has since passed away left
23 the room?
24 A Yes, correct.
25 Q Because he didn't want to be part of what was going
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1800
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 to be happening, right?
2 A Well, he was told to leave, so he did.
3 Q He was told to leave, wasn't he?
4 A He was kind of told if you stay you will have to be a
5 witness.
6 Q Yes.
7 Did he have any choice whether he could stay or
8 leave?
9 A I'm sure he did.
10 Q Those agents welcomed him to stay and it was his
11 choice?
12 A They didn't force him out, no. They didn't force him
13 out.
14 Q So then it was just you by yourself with those three
15 men with badges, right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q And any one of these men at the table there
18 (indicating)?
19 A I believe Mr. Jordan was the only one present at the
20 time.
21 Q And two other men with badges?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did all three men with badges show you their badges?
24 A Yes, they did, and if I recall they gave me their
25 business card at the time too.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1801
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 Q So you sat down with these three men with badges,
2 right?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Now, what did you talk about?
5 A Whatever they asked me.
6 Q So they had questions for you?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And when they came in and asked you questions, do you
9 recall what those questions were about?
10 A I can't tell. This is four years ago. I can't.
11 Whatever the questions were. They were all related to
12 Who's Who Worldwide. That much I can tell you.
13 Q They didn't ask you what you had for breakfast,
14 right?
15 A No.
16 Q Now, when these men came down and showed you their
17 badges, did you know that they were law enforcement men?
18 A Obviously, yes.
19 Q And that was the first meeting, wasn't it?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Did they sit you down and explain to you that you
22 have no obligation to speak to them at all?
23 A I don't recall.
24 Q Did they tell you under the law of this country, if
25 you just wanted to say nothing to them that was your
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1802
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 right, privilege and constitutional protection?
2 A Again, I don't recall.
3 Q Did they ask you if you wanted to speak to them?
4 A I guess the conversation just came and questions were
5 brought and answers were given and I don't remember any of
6 those things coming about.
7 Q How long did that first meeting take?
8 A It could be an hour, hour-and-a-half, somewhere
9 around there.
10 Q Pretty long.
11 Did you talk with the agents during that whole
12 hour, hour-and-a-half or were there long lulls of silence?
13 A No, we were talking.
14 Q So a lot was discussed during that hour,
15 hour-and-a-half?
16 A Don't ask me what, because I can't recall it.
17 Q Do you remember anybody sitting down with a pad and
18 pen and jotting down notes as you spoke?
19 A I don't recall it, no.
20 Q Do you recall if anyone had a tape-recorder and
21 turned that on?
22 A Again, I don't know.
23 Q The second meeting, when did that take place with
24 these -- withdrawn.
25 You had a second meeting with members of the
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1803
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 government, right?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q The same three men with badges came?
4 A Different people. Mr. Jordan, I met Mr. White for
5 the first time at that meeting and there was some other
6 gentleman. I don't know if it was Mr. Pagano or somebody
7 else. No, I don't think it was Mr. Pagano. I'm not sure
8 what who it was.
9 Q So it was the second meeting that you spoke with the
10 government that you met Mr. White?
11 A The first time, yes.
12 Q For the first time.
13 And is that second meeting held at Mr. White's
14 office?
15 A No, sir. It was held in the Hicksville Post Office
16 area.
17 Q Was there present by any chance a postal inspector in
18 addition to Inspector Pagano that you can recall by the
19 name of Biegelman?
20 A The name is familiar. As I said before, I can't
21 remember the gentleman's face or anything, but the name is
22 very familiar.
23 Q Now, during that second meeting, did anybody take any
24 notes?
25 A I can't tell you.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1804
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 Q Did they call you up and ask you to come down to the
2 Hicksville Post Office?
3 A Yes, we made an appointment. They wanted to meet me
4 and that was the only time I had available was that
5 Saturday morning.
6 Q Who called you? Do you remember?
7 A Either Mr. White or Mr. Jordan, one of them.
8 Q What did they say? Do you remember?
9 A That we had to get together and talk.
10 Q And then what did you say?
11 A I don't remember. We discussed when and how and how
12 long it was going to take.
13 Q Did you feel you had any choice whether you wanted to
14 speak to them or not, whether you had to or not?
15 A I had nothing to hide at that point, so whatever they
16 wanted to ask, they were law enforcement. I answered
17 them.
18 Q No problem, right, like going to Macy's to go
19 shopping.
20 A I didn't think nothing of it.
21 Q Okay.
22 A If I was afraid I would have gotten an attorney at
23 that point, I would say.
24 Q And they didn't tell you to get an attorney yet, did
25 they?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1805
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 A No, they didn't.
2 Q How long did the second meeting last?
3 A Probably about another hour, hour-and-a-half.
4 Q So far between the first two meetings you had spoken
5 to these people for a total of about three hours?
6 A It's a possibility.
7 Q And through that second meeting nobody at this table
8 who was present at that meeting (indicating) or Inspector
9 Biegelman or whomever else was there from the government
10 told you to get a lawyer?
11 A Not that I recall.
12 Q And you were talking about things that involved law
13 enforcement investigations, you understood that, right?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q Did they tell you --
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q I'm sorry.
18 A Yes, I did. I corrected the --
19 Q Did they tell you at any time that they were
20 investigating you, ma'am?
21 A No, they did not.
22 Q They didn't.
23 For three hours they spoke to you and they didn't
24 say a word that they were investigating you?
25 A Not that I recall.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1806
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 Q Well, you probably would remember something like
2 that, wouldn't you?
3 A Absolutely.
4 Q Have you ever been stopped by a cop for a traffic
5 ticket?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you ever get nervous when a cop stops you for a
8 traffic ticket?
9 A I got stopped once. That was it.
10 Q Were you nervous?
11 A I knew I had violated the law.
12 Q I'm not asking you that. I'm asking you if you were
13 nervous?
14 A Not necessarily.
15 Q Do you ever get nervous about anything, ma'am?
16 A You are getting me nervous right now.
17 Q Good.
18 But you weren't nervous when Inspector Pagano and
19 Agent Jordan and Mr. White were talking to you about their
20 investigation of Who's Who for the total of three hours,
21 you weren't nervous?
22 A No.
23 Q No.
24 And they didn't tell you to get a lawyer for
25 those first two meetings?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1807
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 A That's correct.
2 Q But then there did come a time when they told you to
3 get a lawyer, didn't they?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And that was at the third meeting, wasn't it?
6 A To my recollection, yes.
7 Q And it wasn't even prior to the third meeting that
8 they told you to bring a lawyer but rather in the midst of
9 the third meeting they told you to get a lawyer, right?
10 A I think they started the meeting by telling me I
11 should contact an attorney.
12 Q They didn't call you up beforehand before that third
13 meeting and say we'd like to meet with you but we think
14 you ought to have a lawyer present, did they?
15 A Not on the phone do I recall.
16 Q Where did the third meeting take place, ma'am?
17 A In the Huntington Townhouse again.
18 Q Was your then boss present?
19 A He was deceased by then.
20 Q Was anyone else present?
21 A Myself.
22 Q The meeting happened in that same office where that
23 first meeting, that hour-and-a-half meeting occurred?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Just you and who at the third meeting?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1808
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 A Mr. White, Mr. Jordan and maybe Mr. Pagano.
2 Q So Mr. Jordan had been at all the meetings?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Would you say that Mr. Jordan was kind of the leader
5 of the group?
6 A He was one of the group. I couldn't tell one being
7 more important than the other.
8 Q Well, clearly Mr. White was the most important man at
9 the meetings, right?
10 A Well, not specifying or making himself to that
11 extent.
12 Q I understand.
13 But the person who was at all three meetings was
14 Mr. Jordan, no one else, was at all three meetings but
15 him?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And you?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And do you remember who it was that told you that you
20 ought to get a lawyer at that third meeting?
21 A I cannot tell you who came up with it. Probably
22 Mr. White, probably. I'm not sure.
23 Q And Mr. White had met with you during the second
24 meeting, right?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1809
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 Q At the Hicksville Post Office, right?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And during that second meeting Mr. White didn't tell
4 you to get a lawyer, did he?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Did you know at the time during the first meeting and
7 the second meeting that you were speaking to these men in
8 suits with badges that they could hold against you what
9 you were saying?
10 A Not at all.
11 Q You had no clue, did you?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q And they didn't tell you that they could hold against
14 you what you were saying during those first two meetings?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q They didn't say a word about that, did they?
17 A No.
18 Q What's your guess, ma'am? Do you think that Agent
19 Jordan knows about the constitutional right to remain
20 silent? What do you think?
21 MR. WHITE: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 BY MR. NEVILLE:
24 Q So it wasn't until the third meeting and not before
25 the third meeting but after the third meeting began that
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1810
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 Mr. White finally told you that you ought to get a lawyer,
2 right?
3 THE COURT: Mr. Neville, we've had that five
4 times now. Let's move along.
5 BY MR. NEVILLE:
6 Q And as soon as Mr. White said that, what did you do,
7 ma'am?
8 A I called an attorney.
9 Q As soon as Mr. White told you you ought to get a
10 lawyer, you called the lawyer, right?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q And in fact, Mr. White provided you with a telephone
13 to use or I'm sorry, you were in your own office?
14 A It was my own office.
15 Q Now, let me ask you this, ma'am. If at the first
16 meeting Mr. Jordan had walked in and introduced himself
17 and said ma'am, we want to speak to you but we think you
18 should get a lawyer first, you would have called a lawyer,
19 right?
20 MR. WHITE: Objection.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 BY MR. NEVILLE:
23 Q Ma'am, did you get nervous at all once Mr. White told
24 you that you should get a lawyer?
25 A No, I did not. I just couldn't understand why I had
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1811
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 to get an attorney at that point.
2 Q You had had two previous meetings with these guys,
3 right?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Two previous meetings that lasted up to three hours
6 with these guys, right?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q These men in suits with badges, right?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And they were talking to you about their
11 investigation of Who's Who Worldwide, right?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q And you had no clue what the problem might be for
14 you? No clue at all?
15 A No, I don't.
16 Q And then Mr. White told you to get a lawyer and you
17 called one and you still had no clue as to why you were
18 calling a lawyer?
19 A I probably asked him what is the reason why I have to
20 get an attorney.
21 Q So you had to depend on Mr. White to explain to you
22 why you needed a lawyer, is that what you are saying?
23 A As I said, I got the attorney on the phone and I told
24 him who I had in my presence and I said would you please
25 discuss with Mr. White, do you mind discussing with
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1812
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 Mr. White what this is about because I really did not know
2 the extent of whatever was going on at that point, at that
3 time.
4 Q You had had two previous meetings for a total of
5 three hours with these people and you had no idea what was
6 going on, is that what your testimony is?
7 A Personally? I did not know what I was involved in.
8 Q What did you talk about for three hours during those
9 first two meetings?
10 A Sir, if I remember, I would have a very good memory.
11 I don't recall. We talked about whatever they asked me
12 but I can't tell you the details of the conversation.
13 Q The fourth meeting you had with these agents you had
14 your lawyer present, didn't you?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And Mr. Nicolisi?
17 A Yes.
18 Q He was actually physically there with you, wasn't he?
19 A Yes, he was in the office.
20 Q Where did this fourth meeting take place?
21 A In Mr. White's office, I believe.
22 Q So you were summoned to Mr. White's office with your
23 lawyer, right?
24 A I don't believe I got a summons. We were told to go
25 there. I don't think I got a summons.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1813
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 Q And when you were told to go there, you went, right?
2 A Yeah.
3 Q And you had your lawyer there with you, Mr. Nicolisi?
4 A Which I haven't contacted since.
5 Q Did you have any idea at that point when you brought
6 Mr. Nicolisi to the fourth meeting what these people
7 wanted to talk to you about and what the excitement was?
8 A I find out when I was at the meeting.
9 Q So it was at the fourth meeting when you found out
10 finally what was going on?
11 A Umm-hmm.
12 THE COURT: Yes?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
14 BY MR. NEVILLE:
15 Q You had no idea for the first three meetings that
16 these people were looking at you as a possible target in
17 their investigation, somebody that they were
18 investigating?
19 A I said that quite a few times. No, I did not, sir.
20 Q They didn't tell you to get a lawyer until the third
21 meeting, right?
22 A We discussed that a few times, yes.
23 Q And the reason they told you to get a lawyer after or
24 during the third meeting was because it came to pass that
25 you were exposed to possible criminal liability, right?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1814
Gasper-cross/Neville
1 MR. WHITE: Objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 BY MR. NEVILLE:
4 Q Did you know in your mind that -- withdrawn.
5 Do you know why you got a lawyer, ma'am?
6 MR. WHITE: Objection. Asked and answered.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 BY MR. NEVILLE:
9 Q Ma'am, when you first started to talk to these men in
10 suits and badges, did you understand that you might be
11 talking yourself into being charged with a crime?
12 A No, I did not.
13 MR. WHITE: Objection.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 This is all very repetitive. Now, I allow it up
16 to a certain point but we've had it time and time again.
17 Anything else you want to add, Mr. Neville?
18 MR. NEVILLE: One more thing on a slightly
19 different subject.
20 THE COURT: Go ahead.
21 BY MR. NEVILLE:
22 Q When you worked at Who's Who with Mr. Gordon, he was
23 a very demanding boss, wasn't he?
24 A Just like a normal boss.
25 Q Did he ever get impatient with you or anyone else in
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1815
Gasper-cross/Lee
1 your presence?
2 A With me personally? I don't really remember having
3 any problems with him.
4 Q Did you ever hear him yell at anybody else?
5 A That I did.
6 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you, Your Honor. I have no
7 further questions.
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. LEE:
10 Q Good afternoon, ma'am.
11 Would I be correct in stating that you and your
12 lawyer negotiated with the government and insisted that
13 before you would come here and testify that you be given
14 immunity? Would that be a fair statement?
15 A I don't think anything was discussed at that point.
16 I think the immunity letter was given to the attorney at
17 that point and there was -- and that was the end of the
18 conversation. As I just mentioned before, I have not
19 spoken to Mr. Nicolisi since that day, whenever that day
20 was, sometime in the beginning of '97.
21 Q I'll ask you the question again.
22 Would it be fair to say that your feeling is that
23 you would not testify today unless you were being
24 protected by this immunity grant from the government; is
25 that correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1816
Gasper-cross/Lee
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, another way of putting it -- let me back up a
3 second.
4 I think you've taken the position here that you
5 have nothing to fear because you've always have and you
6 always will tell the truth about yourself, correct?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q My question to you is, if you did not have an
9 immunity order, would you still just be willing to come in
10 here and tell about what you did?
11 A Absolutely.
12 Q You would.
13 A Yes.
14 Q And therefore, did you require before coming in here
15 that you have a guarantee, an immunity order? That's not
16 something that you would require?
17 A I did not require it, no.
18 Q Well, who did require it? It does exist; is that
19 correct? There is an immunity order?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q And that immunity order is for your benefit,
22 correct?
23 Yes or no?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And it wasn't Mr. White who volunteered and said I
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1817
Gasper-cross/Lee
1 would be a nice person and I will give it to you; isn't
2 that correct?
3 A There was a discussion between Mr. White and
4 Mr. Nicolisi and that's how the conversation came about.
5 Q And Mr. Nicolisi represents your interests and is
6 there to represent you?
7 A Represented.
8 Q He was your lawyer, correct?
9 A At the time, yes.
10 Q And before Mr. Nicolisi came onto the scene, there
11 was no mention, the word "immunity" never came out of
12 Mr. White or anybody else's mouth; is that correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q The only time that the word immunity started being
15 discussed was when you had a lawyer and after you had a
16 discussion with that lawyer, correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And am I correct in assuming that after your
19 discussions with the lawyer, you had the feeling that
20 perhaps you needed to be protected before you say anything
21 further about what you had done, correct?
22 Is that correct?
23 A I cannot answer that with a yes or a no.
24 Q I'm not asking you your discussions with your
25 lawyer. But did you after, after being advised by your
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1818
Gasper-cross/Lee
1 lawyer, is it fair to say that he advised you that you
2 needed protection? Is that correct?
3 A Can I make a comment to that, sir?
4 Q After you spoke to your lawyer, Mr. Nicolisi, would
5 it have been on the one hand that he said you have nothing
6 to be afraid of, just do whatever you want to do as if I
7 wasn't here, or was it on the other hand his taking a
8 posture that he would protect you and he said to you you
9 better get protection before you say anything else?
10 Which one would be the more accurate
11 description?
12 MR. WHITE: Objection to the form of the
13 question.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 MR. LEE: I have no further questions.
16 MR. GEDULDIG: Just one or two, Judge.
17 (Continued.)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1819
Gasper-cross/Geduldig
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. GEDULDIG:
3 Q Ms. Gaspar, you testified yesterday.
4 A Yes.
5 Q Would that be fair to say that's the first time you
6 ever testified in a criminal case?
7 A Absolutely.
8 Q And you recall your testimony yesterday?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And it was Mr. White who was asking you questions
11 from the government's side?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Was there any question put to you by Mr. White
14 yesterday which you responded to by saying "I don't
15 recall"?
16 A I don't recall right now.
17 MR. GEDULDIG: I have no other questions, Judge.
18 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Your Honor, I'll be a while.
19 THE COURT: Well, let's get started. Don't think
20 I set a pattern yesterday by adjourning five minutes
21 earlier.
22 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I thought that might have been
23 a trend.
24 (Continued.)
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1820
Gasper-cross/Wallenstein
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN:
3 Q Ms. Gaspar, you said in response to a question that
4 Mr. Jenks asked you earlier with respect to the
5 compensation agreement that you were told that the
6 document was locked away; is that correct?
7 A That's what I was told.
8 Q Who told you that?
9 A Mr. Reffsin.
10 Q When did he tell you that?
11 A When he gave me the instructions and the wording to
12 write on the letter.
13 Q And when was that in time?
14 A If I recall the compensation letter was in March or
15 something, so it had to be on or about that time.
16 Q That was March of 1994; is that correct?
17 A That's the date that I saw on the letter.
18 Q And was that before or after the bankruptcy
19 proceeding was filed?
20 A March 4th was before.
21 Q It was before the bankruptcy was filed that you wrote
22 that letter?
23 A March 4th -- I don't know when I wrote it. I know
24 that is the date on the letter.
25 Q Well, did you date it -- withdrawn.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1821
Gasper-cross/Wallenstein
1 When you wrote it, did you put the date on it, on
2 the day that you were working?
3 A I cannot answer that. I don't know.
4 Q Did Mr. Reffsin tell you what to write?
5 A I know the contents of the letter were given to me to
6 write, yes.
7 Q Did he give you the precise words?
8 A He -- I believe he gave me over the phone what to
9 write on the letter.
10 Q So this conversation with Mr. Reffsin did not take
11 place in person. It took place on the phone?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And did you ever see that agreement?
14 A No, I did not.
15 Q Did you ever see the agreement at any time before
16 today?
17 A Yes, I saw it before today. Yes, I did.
18 Q When for the first time in your life did you see that
19 agreement?
20 A During some of the meetings that I had with the
21 government.
22 Q Well, would that be the first meeting at the
23 Townhouse?
24 A No, not at all.
25 Q Would it be at the second meeting at the post office?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1822
Gasper-cross/Wallenstein
1 A No. I believe it was one of the last meetings that
2 we had.
3 Q So would it be at the third meeting at the Townhouse?
4 A Third or fourth.
5 Q And the fourth meeting was where, Mr. White's office?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And those were the only meetings you had with the
8 government; is that correct?
9 A I had a couple more short meetings afterwards.
10 Q Well, did you have more than four meetings before you
11 testified in the grand jury?
12 A You mean did I? You mean today?
13 Q No, I mean in the grand jury.
14 A No.
15 Q You do remember testifying in the grand jury?
16 A Yes.
17 THE COURT: I'll take a break.
18 Would this be the proper time?
19 MR. WALLENSTEIN: That will be fine.
20 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll take a
21 recess for lunch.
22 Please don't discuss the case either among
23 yourselves or with anyone else. Continue to keep an open
24 mind. Come to no conclusions.
25 We'll recess until 1:30.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1823
Gasper-cross/Wallenstein
1 Have a nice lunch.
2 (Luncheon recess taken.)
3
4
5 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N.
6
7 THE COURT: Is everybody here? It doesn't look
8 that way.
9 Will somebody go out and see?
10 MR. JENKS: Judge, we are just missing
11 Mr. Schoer. He's in the men's room.
12 THE COURT: Where is Mr. Wallenstein?
13 MR. GEDULDIG: I'll take a look.
14 THE COURT: All right. You wanted something,
15 Mr. Trabulus?
16 Mr. Trabulus, did you want to speak to me?
17 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, I did, Your Honor. And
18 Jeffrey O'Connor who is a tax attorney who is an expert in
19 the area is in the courtroom today and I would ask
20 permission during the testimony of Mr. Rosenblatt who is
21 the government's expert he be permitted to sit next to
22 me. I may want to consult with him and to consult with
23 him during the cross-examination. I would ask that the
24 jury be informed that he's an attorney to be present to be
25 consulted with.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1824
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 THE COURT: Why do we have to tell the jury
2 anything?
3 MR. TRABULUS: Maybe we should not.
4 THE COURT: Any objection?
5 MR. WHITE: No objection to that, Your Honor. In
6 sitting here I do want to register an objection right
7 now. Mr. Trabulus indicated that Mr. O'Connor may be an
8 expert witness for them. This is the first I've heard of
9 it. I expect under Rule 16 that the defense would comply
10 with its requirement to inform the government of its
11 expert testimony it is expected to offer just like the
12 government did. I made repeated requests. I've received
13 no discovery. Now, Mr. Trabulus can't delay disclosure by
14 delaying the decision whether or not to call the witness.
15 So, Your Honor, if he's disinclined to call the witness I
16 may make a motion to preclude it.
17 THE COURT: You may make any motion you want but
18 you now know he may be called as a witness. What
19 discovery do you want?
20 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, so far all I have is his
21 business card. I would like what is required under Rule
22 16, his background, his qualifications, the reasons for
23 his opinions and the reasons therefore.
24 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I will endeavor to get
25 his background and qualifications as soon as possible.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1825
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 I've already informed Mr. White that Mr. O'Connor was a
2 clerk to a judge of the tax court, that he worked in the
3 chief counsel's office of the IRS and is an attorney.
4 THE COURT: I don't know, you left me behind when
5 he was a judge to what.
6 MR. TRABULUS: A judge in the tax court.
7 THE COURT: The rest of it was a blur.
8 MR. TRABULUS: I'm sorry, Your Honor. He worked
9 in the chief counsel's office of the IRS and he's an
10 attorney who specializes in tax cases.
11 THE COURT: Whatever you have to do under the
12 rule give to Mr. White. I will not preclude him. There's
13 sufficient time for Mr. White to prepare. I assume the
14 government's case will take at least until Monday.
15 MR. WHITE: Oh, yes.
16 THE COURT: Well, that would be sufficient time.
17 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, at this point we
18 haven't decided whether to call him but as soon as we make
19 a decision I'll immediately prepare whatever has to be
20 given.
21 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, that is not sufficient.
22 He can't delay whether or not he will call him. He should
23 tell me right now what his qualifications are and what his
24 opinions are.
25 THE COURT: He's entitled to give you everything
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1826
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 under the rule as if he's a witness.
2 MR. WHITE: That's right, but can you impose a
3 date like tomorrow.
4 THE COURT: Yes, tomorrow.
5 MR. TRABULUS: I can't give opinions because I
6 haven't formulated it.
7 THE COURT: Excuse me. Give everything other
8 than the opinions, you'll give the opinions on Monday.
9 All right.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Fair enough.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 Bring in the jury.
13 (Jury enters.)
14 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
15 jury.
16 Where is the witness?
17 MR. WHITE: She's next door, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Ms. Gaspar, you are still under
19 oath. Do you understand that?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: You may proceed.
22 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN: (Continued.)
23 Q Ms. Gaspar, before the luncheon break we were
24 discussing the compensation agreement and the letter you
25 wrote with respect to which you say was at Mr. Reffsin's
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1827
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 request; is that correct?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And do you recall when that conversation with
4 Mr. Reffsin took place?
5 A I cannot tell you the time, no.
6 Q Do you know what month it was?
7 A If my memory serves me right to a certain point, I
8 kind of remember something, something to do with the
9 bankruptcy, 341s, and a question came up to the fact if
10 there was a compensation --
11 Q Excuse me. Do you recall what month it was that
12 Mr. Reffsin asked you to prepare that letter?
13 Would you answer that question, please?
14 A Probably, as far as I was trying to answer you,
15 sometime after the bankruptcy took place.
16 Q You mean after the initial petition was filed?
17 A Right.
18 Q So that would be sometime in April or May or June of
19 1994, would that be right?
20 A Not as far as June.
21 Q April or May?
22 A Maybe April.
23 Q Where did the conversation take place?
24 A What I was trying to tell you, sir, I recall
25 something in a 341. A question came up regarding --
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1828
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Ms. Gaspar, my question to you was where did the
2 conversation with Mr. Reffsin take place where he asked
3 you to write that letter?
4 Would you answer that question, please?
5 A I can't tell you precisely where it was.
6 Q Well, was it in Mr. Reffsin's office?
7 A Definitely not.
8 Q You've never been in Mr. Reffsin's office?
9 A No, I have not.
10 Q Was it in the Who's Who office?
11 A It's a possibility.
12 Q Was it in Lake Success or in Manhattan?
13 A If it wasn't in Who's Who, it had to be in Lake
14 Success.
15 Q Could it have been in the Sterling office?
16 A No, I don't ever remember being there with
17 Mr. Reffsin.
18 Q Were you ever there?
19 A In Sterling?
20 Q Yes.
21 A Oh, yes.
22 Q Did you ever work for Sterling? Were you ever an
23 employee?
24 A No.
25 Q Could the conversation with Mr. Reffsin where he
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1829
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 asked you to write this letter have been in a courtroom?
2 A I doubt it very much.
3 Q Would it have been in a car?
4 A It could have been in a car and it could have been in
5 the office. I cannot tell you precisely where it was.
6 Q Do you know what the occasion was?
7 A It was pursuing a conversation that took place in a
8 courtroom and the question was, the question came about if
9 there was a compensation agreement between Mr. Gordon and
10 the company or whoever.
11 Q Before that time did you know that there was such an
12 agreement?
13 A No, I did not.
14 Q Have you ever seen that agreement?
15 A I saw it afterwards.
16 Q When for the first time did you see it?
17 A Couple months ago, I would say.
18 Q Sometime in late 1997 then?
19 A No, I believe it was shown to me in one of the last
20 meetings that I had with the government.
21 Q That would be one of those four meetings we talked
22 about?
23 A The last one probably.
24 Q And that would have been when in time?
25 A Sometime late '96. Don't take me on the date. I
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1830
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 really can't tell you precisely when.
2 Q You really don't remember?
3 A I really don't, no.
4 Q But that was the first time you saw the compensation
5 agreement; is that correct?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q At the time that you had the conversation with
8 Mr. Reffsin with respect to writing a letter about the
9 compensation agreement, did you at that time have any
10 reason to believe that the agreement did not exist?
11 A I had not.
12 Q When Mr. Reffsin asked you to write the letter, did
13 you ask him to let you see it?
14 A I believe I did. I said where is that agreement,
15 something to that effect?
16 Q And what did he say?
17 A Somewhere in the office and it's locked.
18 Q He said it was locked up?
19 A I believe I answered that question before.
20 Q Did he say it was locked up?
21 A It was locked. Not locked up, but locked.
22 Q Locked.
23 A Yes, in some file cabinet. I presumed that's where
24 it was.
25 Q He didn't tell you it was locked up in the file
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1831
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 cabinet, you presumed?
2 A There were a lot of locked documents in the file
3 cabinet.
4 Q Did he tell you that this document was specifically
5 locked in the file cabinet?
6 A No, he did not.
7 Q Did he tell you --
8 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Bear with me a moment, please,
9 Judge.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN:
12 Q Did Mr. Reffsin tell you that he was writing that
13 agreement, the compensation agreement?
14 A No. He dictated what I should right.
15 Q He dictated to you?
16 A The contents what I should write in the letter.
17 Q He told you what to write in the letter?
18 A Umm-hmm.
19 Q Did he tell you that he was writing a compensation
20 agreement between the Grossmans and -- between Mr. Gordon,
21 rather, and the shareholders of Who's Who? Did he tell
22 you that's what he was doing?
23 A No, he did not say it.
24 Q Did you ever hear a conversation where Mr. Reffsin25 told you that he was writing such an agreement?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1832
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 A I remember something being said that we have to make
2 a compensation agreement. I don't know if they were
3 referring to that particular one or any other one. I
4 don't remember. I don't know.
5 Q Do you recall testifying in the grand jury?
6 A I don't remember, sir.
7 Q You don't remember that you testified in the grand
8 jury in this case?
9 A If the question came up to me on that?
10 Q No. The question is, do you recall testifying in the
11 grand jury? That's a yes or no question.
12 A Yes, the grand jury. Absolutely.
13 Q You testified in February of 1997?
14 A Somewhere around that time.
15 Q And you testified under oath?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q And do you recall being asked this question and
18 giving this answer, page 10.
19 "Question: Now, did you also hear a conversation
20 in which Mr. Reffsin indicated that he was writing a
21 compensation agreement between Mr. Gordon and the
22 shareholders of Who's Who Worldwide?
23 "Answer: I heard something like that, yes."
24 Were you asked that question and did you give
25 that answer in the grand jury under oath?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1833
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Yes or no?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Now, you recall four meetings with the government,
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you recalled the first one was at the Huntington
7 Townhouse?
8 A Yes.
9 Q The second one was in the Hicksville Post Office?
10 A Yes.
11 Q The third one was at the Townhouse?
12 A Yes.
13 Q The fourth one was at Mr. White's office?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Each one lasted between an hour, and-a-half hour,
16 somewhere like that?
17 A Somewhere about that time.
18 Q And during those meetings, you were interrogated by
19 government agents; is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And as Mr. Neville put it, men in suits with badges?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you testified earlier that you do not recall what
24 it was that was discussed during those meetings; is that
25 correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1834
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 A I can't recall the content of the discussion, no, I
2 cannot.
3 Q You don't remember any of the questions you were
4 asked or anything that you said to them about what was
5 discussed, correct?
6 A Right now if you --
7 Q Right now.
8 A Right now I can't tell you precisely what the
9 questions were.
10 Q Right now you have no recollection as you sit here
11 now of the contents of the meetings between you and the
12 government agents; is that correct? Is that a fair
13 statement?
14 A The general topics maybe, but the individual
15 questions I don't remember.
16 Q When for the first time did you learn that Who's Who
17 was going to be required to produce logs to the bankruptcy
18 court?
19 A In one of the 341 hearings.
20 Q When?
21 A Sometime late August, beginning of September.
22 Q 1994?
23 A 1994.
24 Q And where was that 341 hearing?
25 A In the bankruptcy court behind Merrick Road.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1835
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Right over here in Westbury, Privado Road?
2 A Yes.
3 Q In what context did it come up?
4 A The bankruptcy representatives, attorneys, or
5 whatever their capabilities are in there, questioned the
6 debtor if a log was kept and the log must be kept for the
7 usage of the two different facilities.
8 Q Who was the repr esentative from the debtor who was
9 questioned?
10 A A gentleman sitting behind the desk. I don't know
11 his name. I cannot tell you.
12 Q You said the debtor was told that they had --
13 A I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. Well, Mr. Reffsin
14 was the one that was actually doing the talking to the
15 bankruptcy representatives along with the attorney, and I
16 believe that the question or the instruction was directed
17 to Mr. Reffsin at the time.
18 Q And did Mr. Reffsin then say that we've been keeping
19 these logs all along?
20 A I don't recall what he said.
21 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Gaspar, at the conclusion of a
22 particular proceeding in the bankruptcy court, that Who's
23 Who was directed to maintain logs prospectively?
24 A Yes.
25 Q There was no talk about logs being kept for things
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1836
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 that had happened in the past because it had never been
2 done; isn't that correct?
3 A If I recall there was the time-frame that the Court
4 was requesting and that time-frame was prior to the
5 attendance of that particular meeting.
6 Q How long was the time-frame?
7 A Maybe a month prior or something. I don't really
8 remember the exact period of time.
9 Q How many meetings did you attend at the bankruptcy
10 court?
11 A About three or four.
12 Q When was the first one?
13 A I can't tell you. I don't remember.
14 Q When was the second one?
15 A I can't tell you.
16 Q When was the last one?
17 A Probably that one in the end of August, the beginning
18 of September, shortly after I left.
19 Q Before you went into that meeting at the end of
20 August or the beginning of September, would it be a fair
21 statement there were no such logs kept by Who's Who?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Would it be a fair statement that everybody knew
24 there were no such logs kept by Who's Who?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1837
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Would it be a fair statement that at that meeting
2 someone for the first time suggested that perhaps there
3 ought to be logs kept for a particular reason related to
4 the bankruptcy?
5 A The Court instructed it as to do it.
6 Q At that point to begin to keep logs; is that correct?
7 A At the time I attended the meeting, they were
8 questioning if the logs were kept. So I'm presuming that
9 something had taken place and something had been discussed
10 somehow between whomever, I don't know. That at some
11 point in time some logs should have been kept.
12 Q The first time you heard of it was at that meeting?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And it was on the way home from that meeting that you
15 say Mr. Gordon instructed you to create the logs; is that
16 correct?
17 A There was a discussion "we have to make the logs, you
18 have to make the logs," and between Mr. Reffsin and
19 Mr. Gordon they both came up with different topics and
20 different names of people that I should use to generate
21 those logs.
22 Q What names did Mr. Reffsin come up with?
23 A Mostly group leaders and management team.
24 Q Specifically what names? What group leaders did
25 Mr. Reffsin name?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1838
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 A I don't know if the names really came up from
2 Mr. Reffsin --
3 Q Well, you just testified a minute ago Mr. Reffsin was
4 giving you names, correct?
5 A Topics and names.
6 Q So what names did he give you?
7 A Between the two of them, between Mr. Gordon --
8 Q No, as to Mr. Reffsin, not between the two of them.
9 What names did Mr. Reffsin give you specifically?
10 A I can't tell you precisely which names they were but
11 some names he had to know for sure and, well, like I would
12 say Debra Benjamin, Tara.
13 Q Top management?
14 A Top management.
15 Q So you just told us that if he said it you would
16 know?
17 A People from the company.
18 Q Besides Debra Benjamin, what names did he give you?
19 A Probably Tara.
20 Q Do you have a specific recollection as you sit here
21 now of Mr. Reffsin giving you the name of Debra Benjamin
22 to put in the log?
23 A Debra Benjamin, I'm almost positive, yes.
24 Q And you are sure that it was Mr. Reffsin who gave you
25 that name?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1839
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 A Between Mr. Reffsin and Mr. Grossman.
2 Q Was it Mr. Reffsin that gave you that name?
3 A I would say yes.
4 Q Are you sure of that?
5 A To the best of my recollection.
6 Q And he gave you Tara's name too?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And what names did he give you?
9 A I can't give you the names because it's four years
10 that went by.
11 Q You don't know?
12 A Four years went by, I can't tell you because I would
13 be making up names. At the time the names were used,
14 those were the names I was given.
15 Q What names would you be making up other then Benjamin
16 and Tara?
17 A No names were made up. At the time --
18 Q No, what names are you making up now?
19 A Now, none.
20 Q How long did the conversation in the car last?
21 A Couldn't be very long because it was not very much of
22 a ride.
23 Q How long was the ride?
24 A Maybe 20 minutes.
25 Q You went from the bankruptcy court back to the Who's
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1840
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Who offices?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Mr. Reffsin was driving?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q What time of day was it?
6 A I don't know. I would guess the afternoon. I'm not
7 sure.
8 Q Don't guess, Ms. Gaspar, tell us what you remember.
9 A I don't remember the time.
10 Q What kind of car was it?
11 A I don't remember the car. I don't remember the
12 color. I do remember the color, a goldish color. I don't
13 remember what kind of a car. It was a four-door car,
14 that's all I can remember.
15 Q Was it big or small?
16 A Medium sized.
17 Q Was it foreign or domestic?
18 A I can't tell you.
19 Q Mr. Reffsin was driving?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Mr. Gordon was in the front seat and you were in the
22 back?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Anybody else in the car?
25 A Nobody.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1841
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q So the ride takes 20 minutes from the bankruptcy
2 court back to the Who's Who offices?
3 A Right.
4 Q What else did you talk about besides hellos?
5 A I can't tell you any more. I don't remember.
6 Q You don't remember. Okay.
7 When for the first time did you tell anybody
8 about this conversation where Mr. Reffsin allegedly told
9 you what to put in the log?
10 A When? I don't think I spoke to anybody until the log
11 was actually generated which was a while after when I got
1 2 the call from him in the morning.
13 Q How long after --
14 A I can't tell you precise, but it was sometime after.
15 Q Okay.
16 Now, did there come a time sometime in September
17 of 1994 when you showed Mr. Reffsin a draft of the logs
18 that you were supposed to be maintaining?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And would it be a fair statement that when you showed
21 him those drafts, that all they contained were a couple of
22 dates and a couple of names?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And that conversation took place in the office of
25 Who's Who, correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1842
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 A On the phone from Who's Who office.
2 Q You showed him the logs on the phone?
3 A I faxed it to him.
4 Q Did you ever have a conversation in the office of
5 Who's Who where you physically had the logs and you and
6 Mr. Reffsin discussed it?
7 A Not to my knowledge.
8 Q Do you recall a conversation in the office of Who's
9 Who where you showed Mr. Reffsin the logs which at that
10 time consisted of two sheets of paper and contained simply
11 a couple of dates and a couple of names?
12 A Did I physically show it to him?
13 Q That's correct.
14 A No.
15 Q Did you fax him such a document?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q And it only contained a couple of dates, a couple of
18 names and it was only two sheets of paper?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Would it be a fair statement Mr. Reffsin said that's
21 not what the Court requires, we need more detail in that,
22 Maria?
23 A He said --
24 Q Excuse me, I asked you if that was a fair statement.
25 Yes or no?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1843
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 A No.
2 Q Now, you didn't work for Mr. Reffsin, did you?
3 A No.
4 Q How often did you see Mr. Reffsin at the Who's Who
5 offices?
6 A Used to go there, I would say, at least once a month,
7 sometimes more.
8 Q Was he personally there once a month or did he have
9 people from his office come in?
10 A He would go there personally and he would also have
11 his associates to go there and do the monthly review.
12 Q And it's your testimony that at some point
13 Mr. Reffsin told you that Mr. Gordon was having tax
14 problems?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q When did that conversation take place?
17 A Sometime in the beginning of 1994.
18 Q January?
19 A January, February, somewhere around that time.
20 Q All right.
21 Where did the conversation take place?
22 A That took place in my office.
23 Q In your office.
24 How many times had you met Mr. Reffsin prior to
25 that conversation?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1844
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 A Oh, a few. I would say seven, eight times. Seven or
2 eight times.
3 Q And you were working for Who's Who just a few weeks
4 at that time?
5 A No, by then I was working approximately two months,
6 two-and-a-half months.
7 Q When was your start date?
8 A Beginning of 19 -- December of 1993.
9 Q And you met with him in January.
10 A Yeah, but I saw him before that.
11 Q The beginning of January or the end of January?
12 A Referring to --
13 Q I'm referring to the conversation in which
14 Mr. Reffsin allegedly told you that Mr. Gordon was having
15 tax problems.
16 A I would say more towards the beginning of February
17 than more January.
18 Q And what were his words?
19 A Again, I recall Mr. Gordon telling me that he was
20 going to call Mr. Reffsin --
21 Q Excuse me, I asked you what Mr. Reffsin said.
22 A What Mr. Reffsin said?
23 Q That's right.
24 A He came from a meeting that had just taken place with
25 Mr. Gordon which my understanding was that Mr. Gordon was
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1845
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 trying to reduce his fee, his monthly fee, and he turned
2 around and he says, you believe this after all I've done
3 for him and saving him millions of dollars, he's trying to
4 cut my fee down. I remember that very clearly.
5 Q That was the conversation in February?
6 A Somewhere around there.
7 Q January.
8 A You know, don't quote me exactly on the time, but
9 somewhere around that time.
10 Q Did you ever work for Mr. Reffsin?
11 A No, I did not.
12 Q Did you ever have any personal relationship with
13 Mr. Reffsin?
14 A No, I did not.
15 Q On the occasions when you spoke with Mr. Reffsin
16 between December of 1993 and the beginning of January,
17 February of 1994, you talked about the business of Who's
18 Who; am I correct?
19 A I'm sure.
20 Q Did you talk about any personal matters with him?
21 A Personally?
22 Q Yes.
23 A I don't recall then.
24 Q Do you recall him telling you anything about his
25 personal life?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1846
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 A No, I don't.
2 Q Did he -- withdrawn.
3 How long, on average, did each of the
4 conversations you had with Mr. Reffsin prior to this
5 conversation last?
6 A It could have been taken a half-hour. It would
7 depend upon the topics we were discussing.
8 Q On each of those occasions, half-hour occasions
9 between December of 1993 or January or early February of
10 1994, you discussed the business of Who's Who Worldwide;
11 is that correct?
12 A To the best of my knowledge.
13 Q But it's your testimony here today that in February
14 he told that you Mr. Gordon was going to cut his fees,
15 right?
16 Yes or no?
17 A Yes.
18 Q When did the conversation take place when he told you
19 that Mr. Gordon was having tax problems?
20 A At that time he mentioned.
21 Q That's the same conversation?
22 A About.
23 Q Yes or no, was it?
24 A I can't tell you if it was exactly the same day or if
25 it was on or about the same time.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1847
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Was it in the same conversation?
2 A As a matter of fact, I recall the very last week of
3 December of 1993 getting a call from Mr. Reffsin
4 instructing me to -- because of Mr. Gordon's personal tax
5 situation, that I had to increase or make a special run
6 payable to show IRS that he had a certain amount of taxes
7 deducted, withholding taxes paid for federal and state,
8 and I recall distinctively called EDP because my last
9 payroll had already taken place and he gave me an amount,
10 a gross amount to be disbursed accordingly to a certain
11 amount to federal, a certain amount to state, no net
12 proceeds to Mr. Gordon, but just so the gross income for
13 the year would show with what IRS required pending to the
14 matters that Mr. Reffsin was trying to solve for or on
15 Mr. Gordon's behalf.
16 Q So if I understand you correctly, at the end of
17 December of 19 93, which would be basically the end of the
18 first month of your employment with Who's Who; is that
19 correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q At the end of your first month of employment
22 Mr. Reffsin not only gave you specific instructions with
23 regard to what to tell the payroll people, but he told you
24 that the reason for it was because Mr. Gordon, your
25 employer, was having serious personal tax problems, is
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1848
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 that about right?
2 Yes or no?
3 A Yes, that he had --
4 Q That's it?
5 A That he had tax problems, umm-hmm.
6 Q All right.
7 Is it true, Ms. Gaspar, that on a number of
8 occasions Mr. Reffsin criticized your work?
9 A Not to my knowledge. Not to me directly anyway.
10 Q Not to you directly.
11 Did Mr. Rizeno, Mr. Reffsin's partner, did he
12 ever criticize your work?
13 A Mr. Rizeno?
14 Q Did you ever meet Mr. Rizeno?
15 A I don't remember the last name. Is that a gentleman
16 that came to handle the bankruptcy matters?
17 I don't know. I only remember seeing that one
18 gentleman in there and I'm not sure if that was the name.
19 Q Were you the person who set up the debtor in
20 possession accounts after the bankruptcy was filed?
21 A The checking accounts?
22 Q And the books.
23 A The books?
24 Q Yeah.
25 A Under his instructions, yes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1849
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Q Excuse me, under whose instructions?
2 A Mr. Reffsin's.
3 Q Mr. Reffsin's instructions.
4 That would be the debtor in possession accounts,
5 the general ledger and so on?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Do you recall Mr. Reffsin telling you that there were
8 a number of errors in the way you set it up and he had to
9 redo it?
10 A No, I do not.
11 Q Do you recall him telling you that there were well
12 over 100 entries that you had made that had to be
13 corrected because of your sloppy work?
14 A Not at all. Not in my presence nothing was ever
15 said.
16 Q Now, you were the comptroller, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You were the chief financial officer, correct?
19 A That was the title that I was hired as.
20 Q You were saying that was only a title?
21 A To my knowledge, yes.
22 Q Would it be a fair statement you felt your role was
23 more a bookkeeper than clerical?
24 A What I was doing, yes.
25 Q Did you feel you were responsible for Who's Who
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1850
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 Worldwide's financial affairs?
2 A Not at all. Everything was in control by Mr. Gordon,
3 under Mr. Gordon's instructions is how I used to do
4 everything.
5 Q Essentially you felt you were reduced to the role of
6 a bookkeeper even though you had been an accountant and a
7 chief financial officer for years; is that correct?
8 A I was never a chief financial officer.
9 Q You were at this company, weren't you?
10 A I was hired as one.
11 Q But they never treated you as one?
12 A No.
13 Q Would it be a fair statement that you were never
14 responsible for the financial affairs of Who's Who
15 Worldwide?
16 A I was never the one to make any decisions, therefore,
17 I was not responsible.
18 Q Okay.
19 So you were not responsible for the financial
20 affairs of Who's Who Worldwide; is that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Do you recall testifying in the bankruptcy court on
23 May 18th of 1994?
24 A (Nodding affirmatively.)
25 Q You have to answer, the reporter can't get you
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1851
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 shaking your head.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you recall, 3500-4-G?
4 MR. WHITE: What page?
5 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Page 47.
6 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN:
7 Q Do you recall being examined in the bankruptcy court
8 by Mr. Flaum, Who's Who's attorney?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you recall at that time that you were under oath,
11 just as you are under oath today?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Do you recall being asked this question by Mr. Flaum
14 on direct examination and giving this answer?
15 Yes or no, please.
16 I'm sorry, this series of questions.
17 "Question: Can you identify whether you are
18 familiar with this debtor?" -- Being Who's Who Worldwide.
19 "Answer: Yes, I am.
20 "Question: And in what capacity?
21 "Answer: I'm the comptroller and chief financial
22 officer."
23 THE COURT: You have to go slower,
24 Mr. Wallenstein.
25 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Okay.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1852
Gaspar-cross/Wallenstein
1 "Question: In your capacity as comptroller, are
2 you responsible for all the financial affairs of the
3 debtor?
4 "Answer: Yes, I am."
5 Were you asked those questions and did you give
6 those answers under oath in the bankruptcy court?
7 Yes or no?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Thank you.
10 I have no further questions, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Mr. White?
12 MR. WHITE: Yes, Your Honor.
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. WHITE:
15 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, you said in answer to Mr. Trabulus'
16 questions that you saw that Mr. Gordon was making around
17 the same amount of money that you were when you started;
18 is that right?
19 A That's correct, sir.
20 Q Now, was it before or after that -- let me rephrase
21 the question.
22 Was it before or after you noticed that
23 Mr. Reffsin made his request for you to run another
24 payroll for the year?
25 A After.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1853
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Q Prior to the time you ran the extra payroll which was
2 late December of 1993, correct?
3 A It had to be December, probably, December 30th or
4 31st.
5 Q Okay.
6 Prior to the time you made that extra payroll
7 run, do you recall approximately what Mr. Gordon was --
8 had made to that point in 1993?
9 A I would say around 55 to $60,000.
10 Q And tell us what you did or tell us what Mr. Reffsin
11 asked you to do in making this extra payroll run?
12 A I remember him giving me the amount, somehow $38,000
13 sounds like an amount that was given to me, broken down by
14 a certain amount of federal to be put into withholding
15 taxes in federal and a certain amount into state.
16 Q And from this extra payroll run, was Mr. Gordon going
17 to get any take home pay or was it only going to be taxes?
18 A No take home pay, no net amount came out to that. It
19 was strictly to be put into withholding taxes.
20 Q So in other words, Mr. Gordon had earned up to a
21 certain amount up to 1993?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And then he was going to be paid more all of which
24 would be put towards withholding taxes?
25 A Withholding taxes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1854
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Q Now, would that have increased his total compensation
2 or income or salary for the year?
3 A Definitely so.
4 Q And it would have increased it from somewhere in the
5 neighborhood of 50,000 plus approximately --
6 A From the 50s to 91, that's what it shows on the 1040
7 for the year.
8 Q Now, you mentioned a 341 hearing at which preceded
9 the conversation in the car with Mr. Reffsin and
10 Mr. Gordon. Do you recall that?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And you said that was sometime in late August or
13 early September?
14 A To the best of my knowledge, yes.
15 Q Now, aside from you -- well, was Mr. Gordon and
16 Mr. Reffsin actually at the 341 hearing?
17 A Yes, they were.
18 Q And were you there?
19 A Yes, I was.
20 Q Can you tell us if you recollect who else was there?
21 A The attorney for Mr. Gordon, I believe. The attorney
22 for Reed and the representatives of the bankruptcy court.
23 Q When you say "the representatives of the bankruptcy
24 court," do you mean the U.S. Trustees Office?
25 A If that's what you call it, yes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1855
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Q The people who you were referring to, were they
2 running the meeting?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you remember, can you describe, first of all, how
5 many of them were there?
6 A There was a gentleman and the lady.
7 Q Can you describe the gentleman and the lady from the
8 Trustees' Office?
9 A The lady was in the middle age, she had short blonde
10 hair. The gentleman was like an Oriental looking
11 gentleman, I believe he was an attorney.
12 Q Ms. Gaspar, let me show you Exhibit 801 which is in
13 evidence. That's a transcript of a 341 hearing that was
14 conducted on September 9, 1994.
15 Now, if you could look at the front page, if you
16 could look at the front page of that exhibit, that
17 transcript.
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you see it?
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q Under the date it says "appearances. Department of
22 Justice. Attorneys for U.S. Trustee."
23 Do you see that?
24 A Yep.
25 Q And there's an address and then it says "by Carol
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1856
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 O'Toole, Esq. and Stan Yang, Esq."
2 A That's the Oriental person that I'm probably
3 referring to.
4 Q And do you see further down on the page it says
5 "Rifkin Radler & Kremer, attorneys for debtor"?
6 A Mr. Ackerman.
7 Q It says Mr. Ackerman was present, right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And it says Whitman Breed Abbott & Morgan, attorneys
10 for Reed Publishing?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And it lists a man named Douglas Skalka?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, turn to the next page.
15 Who does it say is there for Who's Who Worldwide?
16 A Bruce Gordon, Martin and Maria Gaspar.
17 Q Martin who?
18 A Martin Reffsin.
19 Q And it lists you too, right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q If you could review pages 35, 36 and 37 of that
22 exhibit.
23 A (Perusing.)
24 MR. TRABULUS: Excuse me, which exhibit are we
25 on?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1857
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 MR. WHITE: 801.
2 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
3 BY MR. WHITE:
4 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, have you reviewed those pages?
5 Take your time.
6 A (Perusing.) Yes.
7 Q Now, is it not correct that at that meeting
8 Mr. Ackerman was representing Who's Who Worldwide?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And does Mr. Ackerman say at that hearing that Who's
11 Who Worldwide will be keeping a log of the visitors at the
12 penthouse and the condominium?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And this hearing takes place on what date?
15 A (Perusing.) September 9th.
16 Q And if you look at the top of page 37, it indicates,
17 does it not, Mr. Ackerman indicates, does he not, that the
18 log is to cover the period from August 9th until September
19 15th; is that correct?
20 A Yes, it is.
21 Q And so September 9th is a full month after Who's Who
22 was supposed to have been keeping the log; is that
23 correct?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Now, after you were instructed by Mr. Gordon and
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1858
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Mr. Reffsin to create the logs, you couldn't have gone
2 back and had meetings, actual meetings a month prior to
3 that, could you?
4 A No, I could not, sir. This only proves the point
5 that I mentioned before that --
6 MR. TRABULUS: Objection. Move to strike.
7 THE COURT: Yes, from that point "this only
8 proves" all of that is stricken. The jury is instructed
9 to disregard it.
10 BY MR. WHITE:
11 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, is it your recollection that in the
12 conversation in the car you were told to go back and
13 create meetings beginning back until August?
14 A Absolutely.
15 Q Now, you testified that agents came to the Huntington
16 Townhouse to your office in June, approximately, in June
17 of '95; is that right?
18 A Somewhere around that time.
19 Q And you said your secretary or a receptionist buzzed
20 you to tell you that they were coming down; is that right?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q Did you tell your secretary "don't let them come
23 down"?
24 A Absolutely not.
25 Q Did you tell your secretary, well, tell them I'm not
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1859
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 here?
2 A No, actually she told me they are on the way down.
3 Q When they came down, did you welcome them into your
4 office?
5 A Sure did.
6 Q Did they sit themselves down?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Introduce themselves?
9 A Showed me their IDs.
10 Q Gave you their business cards?
11 A Yes, they did.
12 Q Did you answer their questions?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q Did you tell them, no, I don't want to speak to you,
15 I want to speak to an attorney first?
16 A No, I didn't.
17 Q Did you answer all the questions that were asked of
18 you?
19 A To the best of my knowledge, every single question
20 and every single answer that I had I gave them.
21 Q Did you do that voluntarily?
22 A Absolutely.
23 MR. LEE: I object to the leading. This is
24 improper redirect.
25 THE COURT: Well, the objection is sufficient and
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1860
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 I'll take it from there.
2 Yes, don't lead the witness.
3 BY MR. WHITE:
4 Q Now, you said that there was a subsequent meeting at
5 the Hicksville Post Office; is that right?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And at that meeting do you recollect whether the
8 government brought up the subject of the logs first or you
9 brought up the subject of the logs first?
10 A I guess it was just a matter of the conversation that
11 just lead us to it.
12 Q The conversation lead --
13 A The conversation lead to the logs. I don't know who
14 brought it up, but I don't think it was questioned
15 directly to me or I purposefully went and said it. It was
16 just on the course of the conversation.
17 Q And when it first came up, up to that point in the
18 conversation, had you been shown the logs?
19 A No, I had not.
20 Q And to your knowledge, did the government have a copy
21 of the logs?
22 A Not that I know of.
23 Q Did you -- did the agents indicate -- let me back up.
24 Did you believe that the government knew about
25 the logs?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1861
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 BY MR. WHITE:
4 Q Did you have any reason to think that the government
5 knew about the logs?
6 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 A If the conversation came about, I didn't know why the
9 government would know about the logs. At that point they
10 just came and I just mentioned I had done them.
11 Q Now, you said there was another meeting again at the
12 Townhouse; is that right?
13 A That's correct, sir.
14 Q And that's the meeting where Agent Jordan was
15 present, correct?
16 A Yes, he was.
17 Q And I was there?
18 A Yes, you were.
19 Q And that was the meeting at which it was suggested
20 that you get an attorney?
21 A I believe it was, yes.
22 Q Now, at that time did the government indicate to you
23 that it was willing to ask the Court to grant you
24 immunity?
25 A Nothing was said to me at that point. I was just
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1862
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 told that you would invite me to get an attorney and I
2 didn't know why, and that's, if I recall, that's why I
3 asked Mr. Nicolisi to speak to you directly and to see
4 what there was about it, because I had no clue what was
5 going on.
6 Q And did you ever demand immunity as a condition of
7 you testifying?
8 A Never.
9 Q To your knowledge, did Mr. Nicolisi ever demand that
10 you be granted immunity in exchange for you testifying?
11 A Not to my knowledge.
12 Q And prior to that time, prior to that meeting, had
13 you told the government about the logs?
14 A Prior to that meeting? Oh, yes.
15 Q How many times prior to when you were told you would
16 get immunity had you told the government that you had
17 created these logs?
18 A At least in two meetings that we had, not the first
19 one we didn't discuss the subject, but at least the
20 following two meetings we mentioned it and that's when --
21 that's when the logs came about, at least twice.
22 Q So you had already told the government about the
23 logs; is that correct?
24 A Oh, absolutely.
25 Q Before immunity was even mentioned?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1863
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 A Absolutely.
2 Q Now, when you told the government -- let me back up.
3 Before immunity was mentioned, did you advise the
4 government truthfully of your involvement in the creation
5 of the logs?
6 A I told them exactly what I had told them in the past.
7 Q And was that the truth?
8 A Absolutely.
9 Q And after that but before your trial testimony today,
10 did you testify at any other time regarding your
11 participation, your creation of these logs?
12 A In the grand jury somewhere in Brooklyn or wherever
13 it was.
14 Q Did you tell the truth in your grand jury testimony?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Did you tell the grand jury in substance the same
17 thing you've told this jury?
18 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 A Yes, I did, sir.
21 Q So including your grand jury testimony and the two
22 other times prior to when any immunity was mentioned, you
23 testified three times previously with respect to these
24 logs; is that right?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1864
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Q Now, let me go back to the meetings you had before
2 immunity was even mentioned.
3 When you were asked questions by myself and the
4 agents, were you ever told what other evidence the
5 government had in the case?
6 A Did I ever ask?
7 Q No. Were you ever told what other evidence the
8 government had in the case.
9 A Oh, absolutely not.
10 Q Were you ever told what specific subjects the
11 government was investigating?
12 A No.
13 Q Were you ever told what, if any, other witnesses the
14 government had interviewed?
15 A No.
16 Q Did you have any idea -- at those meetings did you
17 have any idea what other information the government
18 already had?
19 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Your Honor, I object to
20 Mr. White leading the witness.
21 THE COURT: No, that's not leading. Leading
22 would be "you were never told any other information; is
23 that right?" It's slightly different. That's my version
24 of what leading is.
25 Now that I said that, do you recall the question,
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1865
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Mr. White?
2 MR. WHITE: I'll re-ask it, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. WHITE:
5 Q In those meetings did you have any idea what other
6 information the government's investigation had uncovered?
7 A Absolutely not.
8 Q Now, did you know whether or not the government had
9 any information that might contradict what you were saying
10 about the logs?
11 A I had no clue.
12 Q Did you know if the government even had a copy of the
13 logs?
14 A Not at that time.
15 Q Now, at the time that you prepared the log in
16 September of '94, did you know that doing that was not
17 right?
18 A Yes, I did know.
19 Q At the time did you think of it as a crime?
20 A No, I did not.
21 Q You testified on cross-examination in response to
22 numerous attorneys that you didn't have a clear idea why
23 the government was suggesting you need an attorney, do you
24 recall that?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1866
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Q Did the facts that you didn't comprehend your
2 creation of the log as a crime have any effect on that?
3 A Definitely, yes.
4 Q In what way?
5 A I knew I had done something that was not right, but I
6 did not know the extent of what could impact as far as the
7 court of law, I did not. I mean, I was told to do it and
8 I did it even though I didn't agree to it, but I did not
9 visualize what the extent of the damage was that was going
10 to be from such log.
11 Q Now, the logs were faxed to the attorneys on
12 September 23rd; is that right?
13 A Whatever the date is on the logs. I don't recall it.
14 Q Never mind. I'll withdraw the question.
15 About how much longer after that did you work at
16 Who's Who Worldwide?
17 A Roughly a month.
18 Q And did you quit or were you fired?
19 A I resigned.
20 Q Did you inform Mr. Gordon that you were going to
21 resign?
22 A I informed him. I remember clearly having an
23 interview with the owner of the Townhouse on October the
24 20th, if my memory serves me right, which was a Sunday. I
25 was given the job and I came in on a Monday morning.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1867
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Mr. Gordon was in the Sterling office and I told
2 Liz that I was resigning. And she said, oh, blank, blank,
3 don't tell me, and you got to call Bruce.
4 Q And did you call Bruce?
5 A And I called Bruce in Manhattan and I told him I was
6 giving my resignation.
7 Q Tell us what his reaction was.
8 A He said something, you can't do that or something,
9 I'll be there. And he came back to the Long Island office
10 that same day and I recall having -- he called me in his
11 office and he asked me, Liz, I'm pretty sure Liz Sautter
12 was present in that meeting. And I remember him asking
13 why are you resigning? And I says, I'm not comfortable
14 with the situation of the company and my husband had just
15 gotten a new job. He did not have medical benefits. This
16 company was giving me medical benefits right off the bat,
17 and I could see a better opportunity going to this company
18 than stay with Who's Who Worldwide.
19 Q Did Mr. Gordon ask you to stay on as the comptroller
20 at Who's Who?
21 A He did ask me various times and I recall, as a matter
22 of fact, Friday as I was sitting in the office giving my
23 final instructions and guidance to Liz Sautter as far as
24 what she had to do to continue the job until further
25 instructions. I remember Mr. Gordon getting a new office
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1868
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 and he said, so kid, this is it, there is no chance of you
2 staying and I said, no, I really appreciate it but I have
3 to take this opportunity and I have to go forward with my
4 job. So I left. As far as I know, I left in good
5 relations and no hard feelings of any kind.
6 Q Now, after you told Mr. Gordon you were resigning,
7 did he ever offer to pay you more if you would stay?
8 A He wanted to pay my medical benefits and I don't -- I
9 don't recall if he had offered to give me more
10 compensation or whatever. I know he definitely offered to
11 pay for my medical benefits, but I had made a commitment
12 with the other company and I was not about to change my
13 commitment.
14 Q Now, when Mr. Reffsin asked you to write the letter
15 regarding Mr. Gordon's compensation agreement, did you
16 believe that there was such a compensation agreement?
17 A No, I didn't. I didn't know. I had no reason not to
18 believe it to begin with because I had not at that point
19 seen anything that would make me discredit any one of the
20 members of either Mr. Gordon or Mr. Reffsin at the time.
21 Nothing had happened to make me believe otherwise. But I
22 did not see the compensation agreement and I remember
23 questioning it.
24 Q And what were you told by Mr. Reffsin?
25 A That it's in the file somewhere, probably locked.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1869
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Q Now, what was your understanding of Mr. Reffsin's
2 prior relationship with Mr. Gordon professionally?
3 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection.
4 A It was a long time --
5 THE COURT: Sustained. Strike out the answer.
6 BY MR. WHITE:
7 Q In your position as comptroller at Who's Who, did you
8 take orders from Mr. Reffsin?
9 A I got directions from Mr. Reffsin because Mr. Reffsin
10 used to work very directly with Mr. Gordon and whatever
11 Mr. Reffsin used to say was always blessed by Mr. Gordon
12 at one point or another.
13 Q And when Mr. Reffsin made or gave you directions, did
14 you follow them?
15 A To the best of my knowledge, I did.
16 Q Let's go back to the logs.
17 After the conversation in the car with Mr. Gordon
18 and Mr. Reffsin, at the time of the conversation in the
19 car, who did you think or what did you think the penthouse
20 was used for?
21 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 BY MR. WHITE:
24 Q Who did you think lived at the condominium?
25 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1870
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 BY MR. WHITE:
4 Q Did you at the time of that conversation, did you
5 believe that either of the properties were used for
6 business purposes?
7 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I'm not sure --
10 THE COURT: We're not concerned with her belief.
11 Let's get to the facts. What is the basis for her
12 belief? Did she go there? Did she see documents? Is
13 there any evidence?
14 We're not concerned with her belief. She might
15 have believed the Green Bay Packers would win the
16 Superbowl. We're not concerned with that.
17 BY MR. WHITE:
18 Q Now, do you recall in response to questions from the
19 defense attorneys that you mentioned to other employees
20 that their names had been listed for some meetings?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Now, was this an in-depth conversation or just a
23 quick conversation?
24 A A quick conversation.
25 Q Did you explain to them in any detail what it was you
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1871
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 had done with respect to the logs?
2 A I remember mentioning to Debra, Suzanne, and Tracey
3 that they worked together. The guys, so you know, you
4 were at certain meetings at whatever the places were.
5 Q And was that the extent of it or was it in more
6 detail?
7 A That was about the extent of it.
8 Q And that conversation, would you say it took more or
9 less than a minute?
10 A Oh, less than a minute.
11 Q Now, you recall Mr. Wallenstein asked you some
1 2 questions about the conversation in which Mr. Reffsin told
13 you that Mr. Gordon was trying to cut his fee after he had
14 saved him millions of dollars. Do you recall that?
15 A Mr. Wallenstein is --
16 Q Mr. Reffsin's attorney.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you recall being asked those questions?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q And had you been at the company very long at that
21 time?
22 A No. I would say two, three months.
23 Q And can you characterize Mr. Reffsin's tone in the
24 conversation?
25 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1872
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 A He was not quite pleased.
3 Q Would you say he was angry?
4 A Kind of.
5 Q Was he frustrated?
6 MR. TRABULUS: Objection.
7 THE COURT: Sustained. That's not a tone.
8 BY MR. WHITE:
9 Q Now, in the course of your duties as comptroller, did
10 you have occasion or have you had occasion to work with
11 Liz Sautter; is that right?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Were you ever aware of Ms. Sautter purchasing money
14 orders for Mr. Gordon?
15 A Yes, I believe that was done on a weekly basis.
16 Q And what was your understanding --
17 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor. It's
18 beyond the --
19 THE COURT: Yes, it's sustained.
20 BY MR. WHITE:
21 Q Did you ever have a conversation with Ms. Sautter
22 regarding the purpose of her getting these money orders?
23 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Outside the scope. Sustained.
25 MR. WHITE: May I just have one moment?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1873
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 Your Honor, if I may just have one more moment,
2 I'm sorry.
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 BY MR. WHITE:
5 Q Now, Ms. Gaspar, did you have any interests in the
6 outcome of the Who's Who bankruptcy proceedings?
7 A Absolutely not.
8 Q Did it make any deference to you whether or not any
9 particular motion in the bankruptcy proceeding was granted
10 or denied?
11 A Not at all.
12 Q Did you have any reason to falsify these logs on your
13 own?
14 A Absolutely not.
15 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have no further
16 questions.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Trabulus.
18 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 (Continued.)
20
21
22
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1874
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TRABULUS:
3 Q Good afternoon, again, Ms. Gaspar.
4 A Good afternoon.
5 Q You were asked some questions by Mr. White to the
6 effect that Mr. Gordon paid his taxes, is that correct,
7 that there was a sum of money that ADP was directed to pay
8 his taxes; is that correct?
9 A In 1993?
10 Q Yes.
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that was the point of that, that he paid his
13 taxes, right?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Okay.
16 Now, you were asked by Mr. White some questions
17 concerning whether or not you had any idea when the agents
18 came and spoke to you, any idea whatsoever that they might
19 have the logs or might know that they were falsified; is
20 that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q You indicated that they didn't tell you anything at
23 all to that effect, that was your testimony?
24 A Not at the first meeting.
25 Q But at the second meeting did they tell you that?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1875
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 A The conversation came about. Again, I don't know --
2 Q Yes or know, madam. The second meeting did they tell
3 that you?
4 A Did they tell me there was logs?
5 Q Did they tell that you they had information that the
6 logs were falsified?
7 Yes or no?
8 A No.
9 Q Now, you've -- you understood that they were
10 conducting an investigation; is that correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that you were one of many employees of Who's Who
13 Worldwide; is that correct?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q And that they had come and -- they came and spoke
16 with you; is that correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And you certainly did not understand yourself to be
19 the center of the investigation, did you?
20 A No.
21 Q Far from it?
22 A Absolutely.
23 Q Now, when they came and spoke to you, did you assume
24 that they had also spoken to other employees of Who's Who
25 Worldwide?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1876
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 A I would assume so -- as a matter of fact, yes, I did
2 know they had.
3 Q How did you know that?
4 A Because I had a client that had gone there looking to
5 inquire about a wedding and he was an employee, an X
6 employee with his girlfriend who was also an employee and
7 they also told me that they had inquired. So I knew from
8 them that I was not the only person that had been
9 questioned.
10 Q So you knew that there were other people who were
11 being asked questions, right?
12 A I knew those two were anyway.
13 Q And did it occur to you among those other people who
14 might have been questioned might be people who were told,
15 by the way, just so you know according to you you were at
16 certain meetings at certain dates? Did it occur to you
17 that those people might have been questioned?
18 A No.
19 Q Didn't it occur to you some of the people you say you
20 had told you had made false logs to, that they may have
21 been questioned too?
22 A At the time I didn't think of it.
23 Q Not at all.
24 Didn't it occur to you that the agents might have
25 found out about your false logs through talking to other
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1877
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 people, is that your testimony?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q You weren't concerned at all?
4 A Nothing came to my mind.
5 Q Now, you've testified that this was -- you've
6 testified about 341 hearings?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you attended them?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did you attend all of them as far as you know?
11 A Not all of them.
12 Q Some of them?
13 A Some of them.
14 Q There were other things that happened in the
15 bankruptcy court as far as 341 hearings; is that correct?
16 A Not at all.
17 THE COURT: Do you want to slow down.
18 BY MR. TRABULUS:
19 Q Anything else?
20 A I never attended them. I couldn't tell you.
21 Q Are you sure you never attended them beside the 341
22 hearing?
23 A I had one case we went and we all answered in front
24 of the jury, but a lot of other things were going on that
25 I was not aware of.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1878
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 Q You answered in front of a jury?
2 A Yeah, we went to --
3 Q Was there a jury in bankruptcy court?
4 A Whatever there was called.
5 Q You went to bankruptcy court at the time there wasn't
6 a 341 hearing?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you ever go to bankruptcy court when the attorney
9 for Who's Who was not Mr. Ackerman but Mr. Flaum?
10 A I don't recall.
11 Q You don't recall?
12 A I might have been, but I don't recall.
13 Q Do you recall being questioned by Mr. Flaum?
14 A It's a possibility. I cannot tell you.
15 Q A few minutes ago Mr. Wallenstein asked you questions
16 and did you not answer these questions and did you not
17 give these answers and you were read the name Mr. Flaum?
18 A That's the one I was referring to.
19 Q And you saw that, ma'am, did you not?
20 A I remembered the name. I can't remember his face,
21 yes.
22 Q Okay.
23 A That's the meeting that I was referring to.
24 Q You were working for Who's Who during the summer of
25 1994; is that correct?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1879
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 A That's correct.
2 Q In August of 1994?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q And you saw Bruce Gordon on a basically daily basis;
5 is that correct?
6 A Whenever he was in the Lake Success office, I did see
7 him.
8 Q And you were one of the employees of Who's Who who
9 was involved in the bankruptcy proceeding?
10 When I say "involved," you would attend; is that
11 correct?
12 A Some of the meetings I attended.
13 Q And he would keep you informed as to what was going
14 on?
15 A If I was not at the meetings, the matter was not
16 discussed with me.
17 Q When you came to a meeting would you be told in
18 advance that you would be coming to a meeting?
19 A Yes.
20 Q In the meanwhile in between meetings would there be
21 some discussion what was going on in the bankruptcy?
22 A I don't recall. I believe the meetings were
23 prescheduled and we knew exactly when the meetings were
24 going to be taking place.
25 Q You didn't just go to the meetings to testify, did
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1880
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 you?
2 A I actually don't even remember saying anything.
3 Q You don't remember saying anything at any meeting?
4 A Nothing important. I was there just to take notes.
5 Q And did you sometimes or do you recall giving
6 testimony at the bankruptcy proceedings besides the May
7 18th date?
8 A At the 341s?
9 Q Or talking at the 341s, do you recall that?
10 A If I did it was a very minimum conversation.
11 MR. TRABULUS: Bear with me a moment.
12 Excuse me, Your Honor.
13 While I'm looking for it I'll continue asking.
14 BY MR. TRABULUS:
15 Q Is it your testimony that your role was basically as
16 a notary?
17 A To the best of my knowledge, that is what it was.
18 Q Did you answer questions concerning the financial
19 affairs of Who's Who? Do you recall that?
20 A If I did it was very short answers because I remember
21 being instructed by Mr. Reffsin that he would do the
22 talking.
23 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection. Move to strike the
24 last part of that answer.
25 MR. TRABULUS: I join in the motion.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1881
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Yes, "because I was instructed"
2 that's stricken. The jury is instructed to disregard it.
3 MR. TRABULUS: May I ask the Court's indulgence,
4 Your Honor. I'm looking for some transcripts.
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
7 Sorry, Your Honor.
8 BY MR. TRABULUS:
9 Q Okay.
10 In fact, you did testify on May 18, 1994, that's
11 when Mr. Wallenstein questioned you; is that correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And on September 9, 1994, the meeting that you've
14 talked about, do you recall whether you said anything?
15 A I don't recall.
16 THE COURT: Do you want to keep a little bit away
17 from that microphone.
18 MR. TRABULUS: I'm sorry. From where I am I
19 don't hear it.
20 Is that all right, Your Honor?
21 THE COURT: That's fine.
22 MR. TRABULUS: Okay.
23 BY MR. TRABULUS:
24 Q Is it not correct that you were also brought to the
25 341 hearings because you were familiar with the financial
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1882
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 affairs of Who's Who, and you could be there to answer
2 questions, if need be?
3 A That was what I was there for. If they had any
4 questions, for me to answer their questions.
5 Q And is it not also correct that the bankruptcy was a
6 major topic of conversation at Who's Who with Bruce
7 Gordon?
8 A I believe so, yes.
9 Q And again you would speak to Mr. Gordon on a fairly
10 regular basis; is that not correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And is it not fair to say that your relationship was
13 certainly friendly, correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And Mr. Gordon would certainly talk to you about the
16 bankruptcy; is that correct?
17 A To what respect?
18 Just the filing and the paperwork, there was
19 really not much to talk about. It was just follow the
20 rules they were supposed to be applicable to the case.
21 Q Did he talk about Reed Elsevier? You don't have to
22 say what he said, but did he talk about Reed Elsevier?
23 A There was something prior to the 341s and I never
24 really discussed much of it.
25 Q Did he ever express concern that anybody was trying
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1883
Gaspar-recross/Trabulus
1 to shut him down?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And did he express concern that a 100 percent plan
4 wasn't even being accepted by Reed Elsevier?
5 MR. WHITE: Objection. This is beyond the
6 direct.
7 A I don't really know.
8 THE COURT: Excuse me. When I say sustained,
9 don't answer.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honor.
11 BY MR. TRABULUS:
12 Q But in any event, it is fair to say that the
13 bankruptcy was on Mr. Gordon's mind a fair amount, as far
14 as you can tell; is that correct?
15 MR. WHITE: Objection to what is on Mr. Gordon's
16 mind.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 BY MR. TRABULUS:
19 Q Is it fair to say that would come up in conversation
20 with you fairly frequently; is that correct?
21 A We would talk about it.
22 Q Throughout the summer of 1994?
23 A I would say so.
24 MR. TRABULUS: I have no further questions.
25 THE COURT: Anybody else?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1884
Gaspar-recross/Schoer
1 Mr. Neville?
2 MR. NEVILLE: I have nothing.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Schoer.
4 MR. SCHOER: I have just one area I would like to
5 cover.
6 THE COURT: Go ahead.
7 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. MR. SCHOER:
9 Q Ms. Gaspar, you indicated that there were a lot of
10 documents locked up in file cabinets throughout the
11 office; is that correct?
12 A Corporate books and corporate information.
13 Q There was in Liz Sautter's office there were many,
14 many file cabinets; is that correct?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q And weren't all of those file cabinets kept under
17 lock and key all the time?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And in addition, there was a storeroom which had file
20 cabinets in it; isn't that correct?
21 A Yes, I believe so, yes.
22 Q And that also was kept locked, isn't that so?
23 A Definitely so.
24 Q And employees like Tara Garboski didn't have access
25 to the file cabinets in Liz Sautter's office, did she?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1885
Gaspar-recross/Schoer
1 A Neither did I.
2 Q And neither did you.
3 Or in that locked storeroom; isn't that right?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And there were also file cabinets in Mr. Gordon's
6 office; isn't that correct?
7 A There was a lot of drawers. I don't know what the
8 contents are of.
9 Q But those also, as far as you know, they were kept
10 locked; isn't that correct?
11 A I know every time Liz had to go there, she had to get
12 a key, but again I have no clue what was inside of those
13 drawers.
14 Q Okay.
15 But she had to go get a key from Mr. Gordon in
16 order to get into whatever storage cabinets he had in his
17 office?
18 A Most definitely.
19 Q And the cabinets that were in her office that were
20 under lock and key, she was the only one that had the key
21 to that and Mr. Gordon, she and Mr. Gordon were the only
22 ones?
23 A As far as I know.
24 Q You didn't have keys or none of the other people had
25 keys?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1886
Gaspar-recross/Neville
1 A No.
2 Q In fact, the only people that had keys to the whole
3 office were Mr. Gordon and Ms. Sautter; isn't that so?
4 A To the best of my knowledge, yes.
5 MR. SCHOER: Okay. I have no further questions.
6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. NEVILLE:
8 Q Ms. Gaspar, you testified today, I believe it was
9 Mr. Lee that asked you the questions, you didn't demand
10 immunity before testifying. Isn't that what you testified
11 to today?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Yes?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Not a problem, right?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Now, you testified in the grand jury in this case, do
18 you remember, didn't you? Do you remember testifying in
19 the grand jury?
20 A You have to specify what the grand jury is because
21 I'm really confused with this terminology. The grand jury
22 is when we went to Brooklyn? Is that the one?
23 Q I don't know. I wasn't there.
24 A Well, I'm sorry, I should have met you there so I
25 would have known what you are talking about.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1887
Gaspar-recross/Neville
1 Q Do you remember testifying on February 14th of last
2 year?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q In Brooklyn?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And Mr. Ronald White was there?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And asking you questions?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Do you remember taking an oath to tell the truth?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And your lawyer, Mr. Nicolisi, was present not in the
13 grand jury room but outside?
14 A He was in another room.
15 Q Now, before you testified in the grand jury on
16 February 19, 1997, you demanded immunity first, didn't
17 you?
18 A Personally? I didn't.
19 Q No.
20 A The conversation was handled between my attorney and
21 Mr. White. Whatever the conversation was I really don't
22 know. I know that I only paid the attorney and that was
23 the end of that.
24 Q Page 4.
25 Were you asked this question and gave the
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1888
Gaspar-recross/Neville
1 following answer.
2 "Question: Now, am I correct that it's your
3 intention to assert your Fifth Amendment privilege against
4 self-incrimination today with respect to any questions
5 about your employment at Who's Who Worldwide registry?
6 "Answer: Yes."
7 Were you asked that question and did you give
8 that answer in the grand jury last year?
9 A If it's in there I was asked and I gave the answer.
10 Q Do you know what it means to assert your Fifth
11 Amendment privilege, ma'am?
12 A Was the immunity thing. I was not pleading to it
13 that I know of.
14 Q Right.
15 And at the grand jury last year you refused to
16 testify until you got that immunity, right?
17 A I was given the instructions by the attorney, sir. I
18 don't really know technical terminology to be able to
19 answer you that.
20 Q Were you asked the following question and gave the
21 following answer?
22 "Question: Okay. Since you invoked your Fifth
23 Amendment privilege, let me show you a document, Grand
24 Jury Exhibit 102, and it's an order which is dated
25 February 13th of this year, it is signed by U.S. District
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1889
Gaspar-recross/Neville
1 Judge Ross, and it's granting you immunity and ordering
2 you to testify before the grand jury today.
3 Could you take a look at that.
4 Now, have you ever seen this before?
5 "Answer: Yes.
6 "Question: Did you read it and understand it?
7 "Answer: Yes, I did.
8 "Question: Did you review it with your attorney?
9 "Answer: Yes, I did.
10 "Question: Now, let me just for the record and
11 for your information read a portion of the order.
12 You can follow along if you would like.
13 At the bottom on page 1 it says "it is ordered
14 pursuant to 18 U.S.C. Section 6002 that Maria Gaspar give
15 testimony or provide other information which she refuses
16 to give and provide on the basis of her privilege against
17 self-incrimination as to all matters about which she may
18 be interrogated before the grand jury and in any further
19 proceedings resulting therefrom or ancillary thereto.
20 No testimony or other information compelled under
21 this order or any information directly or indirectly
22 derived from such testimony or other information may be
23 used against the witness in any criminal case except a
24 prosecution for perjury, giving a false statement or
25 otherwise failing to comply with this order.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1890
Gaspar-recross/Neville
1 Did you understand that?
2 "Answer: Yes, sir.
3 "Question: Okay. Now that you've been granted
4 use immunity, use of immunity, I submit, use immunity by
5 this order and you've been ordered to testify, are you
6 prepared to proceed today?
7 "Answer: Yes."
8 Were you asked those questions, ma'am, and did
9 you give those answers?
10 A Apparently, yes.
11 MR. NEVILLE: Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Anything else?
13 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor. Briefly.
14 (Continued.)
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1891
Gaspar-recross/Wallenstein
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WALLENSTEIN:
3 Q Ms. Gaspar, you resigned from Who's Who at the end of
4 October of 1994; is that correct?
5 A That's correct, yes.
6 Q And that was because you had a better opportunity at
7 the Townhouse; is that correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And you had your interview at the Townhouse on
10 Sunday, October 20th; is that right?
11 A The last one, yes.
12 Q And when was the first one?
13 A During that week.
14 Q How many interviews did you have during that week?
15 A Two.
16 Q Were they both on the weekends?
17 A No.
18 Q What day was the first one?
19 A I can't recall. Probably a Thursday, but I cannot
20 recall.
21 Q What day was the second one?
22 A The second one was Sunday.
23 Q So you had a total of two?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q What time of day was the first one?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1892
Gaspar-recross/Wallenstein
1 A Late in the evening.
2 Q Now, do you recall earlier being asked some questions
3 about Mr. Gordon's American Express bills being paid by
4 Who's Who?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And do you recall testifying that Mr. Reffsin told
7 you to record them as loans in the books of the
8 corporation; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And he told you that they had to be recorded as loans
11 because otherwise they would be income to Mr. Gordon; is
12 that correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And he would have to pay taxes on it?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q Did Mr. Reffsin also tell you that Mr. Gordon
17 eventually would pay back that loan?
18 A Eventually he would pay the loan back.
19 Q Reffsin did tell you when he talked about the loans,
20 he told you that Gordon intended to pay them back, didn't
21 he?
22 A Eventually he would pay the loan back.
23 Q Excuse me.
24 Did he tell you that he would pay them back
25 eventually or did he eventually tell you?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1893
Gaspar-recross/Wallenstein
1 A No, he said eventually he will pay the loan back.
2 Q But he indicated that Mr. Gordon would at some point
3 in time be repaying those loans, correct?
4 A Eventually, yes.
5 Q You indicated in response to Mr. White's questions a
6 few minutes ago that you took your orders from
7 Mr. Reffsin; is that correct?
8 A Most of them. On an accounting level, yes.
9 Q But you also said that Mr. Reffsin acted under
10 Mr. Gordon's direction; is that correct?
11 A It was my understanding.
12 Q Now, you also said -- withdrawn.
13 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I have nothing further, Your
14 Honor.
15 THE COURT: Anything else?
16 MR. WHITE: Yes, Your Honor.
17 (Continued.)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1894
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WHITE:
3 Q Ms. Gaspar, you testified previously that you did not
4 demand, you personally did not demand immunity before
5 telling the agents about the log; is that right?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q Prior to the time you testified in the grand jury,
8 did you consult with your attorney about your appearance?
9 A I'm sorry, repeat the question?
10 Q Prior to the time you testified in the grand jury in
11 Brooklyn --
12 A Yes.
13 Q -- Did you consult with your attorney regarding your
14 upcoming testimony?
15 A We only briefly spoke on the phone and there was not
16 much that we spoke about. I don't really recall much of
17 the conversation, to tell you the truth.
18 Q Now, do you recall the portion of your grand jury
19 testimony that Mr. Neville just read to you?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Prior to your testimony --
22 A Umm-hmm.
23 Q -- Has your attorney or the government indicated that
24 as a legal technical matter, to get immunity, you would be
25 required to first assert your Fifth Amendment privilege?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1895
Gaspar-redirect/White
1 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 BY MR. WHITE:
4 Q Were you given any instructions regarding whether you
5 would have to first assert your Fifth Amendment privilege
6 before you got immunity?
7 A I believe the attorney mentioned something to that
8 effect. I wouldn't know.
9 Q Did you follow your attorney's instruction?
10 A I just told the attorney to do whatever he had to do.
11 Q Now, under the court order granting you immunity, if
12 you tell the truth, can you be prosecuted using your
13 testimony today?
14 A Absolutely not.
15 Q What is the only way you can be prosecuted given that
16 you've been granted immunity?
17 A If I lied.
18 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Objection.
19 THE COURT: Sustained. We've had this several
20 times. Strike out the answer.
21 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, is the objection to the
22 form or to the subject?
23 THE COURT: No, the objection is that we've heard
24 repeatedly about the terms of the immunity and there is no
25 need to go over it again. In a trial of this length, we
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COUR T REPORTER
1896
Bernstein-direct/Scott
1 have to use judgment in not repeating things and in
2 understanding that the jury heard it several times
3 already.
4 MR. WHITE: I think I'll take Your Honor's
5 advice.
6 I have no further questions.
7 THE COURT: Anything else?
8 MR. TRABULUS: No.
9 You may step down.
10 Members of the jury, we'll take a ten-minute
11 recess. Please don't discuss the case. Keep an open
12 mind.
13 (Recess taken.)
14 (Jury enters.)
15 THE COURT: Please be seated, members of the
16 jury.
17 You may proceed.
18 MS. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 The government calls Robert Bernstein.
20 R O B E R T B E R N S T E I N , having been first duly
21 sworn by the Clerk of the Court, was examined and
22 testified as follows:
23 THE WITNESS: Robert Bernstein,
24 B-E-R-N-S-T-E-I-N.
25 THE COURT: Have a seat, Mr. Bernstein.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1897
Bernstein-direct/Scott
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY MS. SCOTT:
4 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Bernstein.
5 Could you tell us what you do for a living?
6 A I own an automobile leasing corporation.
7 Q What is the name of that corporation?
8 A Well, there are several. Today it is National Star
9 Leasing Company II, LLC.
10 Q Are you saying that you own several of these
11 corporations?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How many are there?
14 A About ten.
15 Q Do they all corporate under the name National Star
16 Leasing?
17 A No, they are different named corporations.
18 Q Has your corporation had the name New York Star
19 Leasing Company in the past?
20 A NY Star Leasing Company, yes.
21 Q Was that in approximately 1994?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q And what about the name Star Motorcar Leasing, Ltd.?
24 A That was in the late '80s.
25 Q That was also a name of the corporation?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1898
Bernstein-direct/Scott
1 A Yes.
2 Q And you've owned this corporation for how many years?
3 A Fourteen years.
4 Q Do you know Bruce Gordon?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q How do you know him?
7 A He was a good customer of mine for a lot of years.
8 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, I'm offering Exhibits 841
9 and 840 for Identification. The parties have stipulated
10 these are business records of Sterling Who's Who and Who's
11 Who Worldwide specifically Who's Who, 840 and the other
12 841.
13 MR. TRABULUS: There is no objection to these
14 coming in evidence, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Government's Exhibits 840 and 841 in
16 evidence.
17 (Government's Exhibits 840 and 841 received in
18 evidence.)
19 BY MS. SCOTT:
20 Q Mr. Bernstein, showing you Government's Exhibits 840
21 and 841. Can you tell the jury what those are?
22 A Motor vehicle leases.
23 Q And specifically looking at Government's Exhibit 840,
24 what is that a motor lease for?
25 A A 1989 BMW 750 IL.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1899
Bernstein-direct/Scott
1 Q What is the date on that lease?
2 A August 30, 1990.
3 Q What is the period of the lease?
4 A A time of 48 months.
5 Q 48 months beginning in 1990?
6 A August of 1990.
7 Q Who is the signatory on that lease?
8 A It's pretty illegible. The purchase option is Bruce
9 Gordon. I can't really read the lease. I would assume
10 the same person.
11 Q Is this a lease -- I'm sorry, what was the name of
12 the company?
13 A Who's Who Worldwide Registry, Inc.
14 Q And your company?
15 A Star Motorcar Leasing, Ltd.
16 Q And can you take a look at some of the attachments to
17 that document.
18 A We have an open end per option rider which is the buy
19 back of the lease at the end of the 48 month term. A copy
20 of the cover letter that you send when the leases get
21 signed. And a copy of a receipt for the turning in the
22 plates in June of 1994, of the motor vehicle.
23 Q And can you tell us what the amount of money was that
24 was paid for that lease?
25 A Paid for the lease, at what period of time?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1900
Bernstein-direct/Scott
1 Q What was the amount of money --
2 A The term?
3 Q Yes.
4 A It was one month at 4,270 and 47 months at 1,270,
5 with an open end purchase option at 22,000 at the end of
6 the lease term.
7 Q Now, take a look at Government's Exhibit 841. Can
8 you tell us what that lease is for?
9 A It's a lease for a 1994 Mercedes Benz 500 SL.
10 Q And who is the person who is leasing that automobile?
11 A Sterling Who's Who.
12 Q Who is the signatory on that lease?
13 A Bruce Gordon.
14 Q And what was the name of your company at the time,
15 the company that was issuing the lease?
16 A NY Star Leasing Company, Inc.
17 Q Which is also your company; is that correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q What was the term of that lease?
20 A Two years.
21 Q And can you tell us the amount of money that was paid
22 for the term of the lease?
23 A First month's rent was 17,307; 23 months at 2,307,
24 with a purchase option of 25,000. Had to be a lease
25 termination.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1901
Bernstein-direct/Scott
1 Q Is there a check attached to that document?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And what is the amount of that check?
4 A $30,124.86.
5 Q What is that payment for?
6 A It looks like the down payment of 15,000, sales tax
7 which is paid up front in New York State of 7867.86,
8 luxury tax of 4,800. First month's rent 2,307 and $150
9 for registration and plates.
10 Q Now, what is the name of the payer on that check?
11 A Sterling Who's Who, Incorporated.
12 Q Now, going back to the BMW lease, Government's
13 Exhibit 840, is there a check attached to that document?
14 A No.
15 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, I would just ask for the
16 Court's permission to publish these documents to the jury.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 MS. SCOTT: Thank you. I have no further
19 questions.
20 THE COURT: Cross-examination?
21 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
22 (Continued.)
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1902
Bernstein-cross/Trabulus
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TRABULUS:
3 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Bernstein. I'm Mr. Gordon's
4 lawyer.
5 Is it unusual for your company to lease expensive
6 automobiles in contracts with corporations?
7 A Not at all.
8 Q Is it unusual for those automobiles to be used by
9 executives of those corporations?
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q That's the normal thing, right?
12 A Sure.
13 Q Isn't it true that is probably a majority of the cars
14 that you lease to corporations?
15 A Yes.
16 Q That's typical, right?
17 A Right.
18 THE COURT: You have to wait until the question
19 is over, Mr. Bernstein, before you answer it.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 BY MR. TRABULUS:
22 Q I'm sorry, Mr. Bernstein, your answer was yes, right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Now, I think you mentioned that you have ten
25 different companies, right?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1903
Bernstein-redirect/Scott
1 A Correct.
2 Q And that's for legitimate business reasons that you
3 organize your business that way, right?
4 A Right.
5 Q Nothing strange or I mean you don't have any ulterior
6 tax avoidance motives?
7 A Not at all.
8 Q But for business reasons, it's best for your business
9 to do that; is that right?
10 A Yes.
11 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
12 THE COURT: Anything else?
13 MS. SCOTT: I just have one question I can ask
14 from here, Your Honor.
15 REDIREC T EXAMINATION
16 BY MS. SCOTT:
17 Q Mr. Bernstein, do you owe the IRS 3.5 million?
18 A Not that I know of.
19 MR. TRABULUS: I object.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 Anything else?
22 MR. TRABULUS: Yes, Your Honor.
23 (Continued.)
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1904
Bernstein-recross/Trabulus
1 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. TRABULUS:
3 Q If you did, would you still have ten companies?
4 A I doubt it.
5 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
6 THE COURT: All right. You are excused,
7 Mr. Bernstein.
8 Please call your next witness.
9 MR. WHITE: The government calls Stanley Chase.
10 (Continued.)
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1905
Chase-direct/White
1 S T A N L E Y C H A S E , having been first duly sworn
2 by the Clerk of the Court, was examined and testified as
3 follows:
4 THE WITNESS: Stanley Chase, C-h-a-s-e.
5 THE COURT: You may proceed.
6 MR. WHITE: Thank you, Your Honor.
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. WHITE:
9 Q Mr. Chase, can you tell us what you do for a living?
10 A I'm retired. I'm a part-time investor.
11 Q Now, do you know a man named Bruce Gordon?
12 A I was his tenant.
13 Q And what was the property where you were his tenant?
14 A It was a condominium in Manhasset.
15 Q Was it at 200 Hummingbird Road?
16 A 200 Hummingbird Road.
17 Q Can you tell us during what period of time you were
18 his tenant there?
19 A From March 1996 to April '97.
20 Q Can you tell us what the monthly rent was?
21 A $5,250 per month.
22 Q And can you tell us to whom you paid that monthly
23 rent?
24 A The rent was paid to Publishing Ventures,
25 Incorporated.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1906
Chase-direct/White
1 Q And did you pay that $5,250 every month for all the
2 months that you were there?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. WHITE: No further questions.
5 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
6 MR. TRABULUS: No questions.
7 THE COURT: You may step down.
8 Call your next witness, please.
9 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, before I do that, I have
10 probably about 100 or more exhibits to move into evidence
11 that we've agreed, I believe, by stipulation.
12 Do you want me to read them into the record?
13 THE COURT: If you want to do it at this time,
14 yes.
15 MR. WHITE: I think this should be in evidence
16 prior to the next witness testifying.
17 THE COURT: Go ahead.
18 MR. JENKS: Can Mr. White indicate who stipulated
19 to what and who the exhibits are offered against.
20 MR. WHITE: One by one?
21 MR. JENKS: Well, I didn't stipulate to anything,
22 Mr. White, to any exhibits, and neither did Mr. Schoer and
23 I don't know about anyone else.
24 MR. NELSON: I don't believe any of the other
25 defendants have, Your Honor.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1907
1 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the exhibits that are
2 offered are offered with respect to Mr. Gordon and
3 Mr. Reffsin as they are either business records of various
4 corporations or Mr. Reffsin's accounting firm. That's one
5 category.
6 Another category is tax returns of Mr. Gordon and
7 Who's Who Worldwide and a third category is transcripts of
8 prior testimony of Mr. Gordon and Mr. Reffsin. So I guess
9 I'll read them.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may we approach with
11 respect to the transcripts of the testimony?
12 THE COURT: Come up.
13 (Side bar.)
14 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, with respect to the
15 transcript of Mr. Reffsin's testimony, it is my position
16 it should be admissible only against Mr. Reffsin.
17 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I think there's portions
18 of it that can be considered co-conspirators' statements.
19 I will not read it into the record now, when the jury is
20 not waiting we can sort out what is admissible against
21 whom.
22 THE COURT: I'll reserve decision in letting them
23 go in not before the jury, and we can sort that out. Is
24 that acceptable?
25 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1908
1 Your Honor, the other point I wanted to make is
2 that included in these documents are materials that were
3 produced by Mr. Reffsin's firm. I have no objection to
4 their admissibility but I don't know whether the witness
5 being offered at this point is complete. There are some
6 other documents which I know have been produced by
7 Mr. Reffsin's firm. I haven't had a chance to compare
8 them, I just got them, obviously not a grand jury
9 production, and if there is an understanding if they are
10 authentic business records of Mr. Reffsin's firm they
11 should also be admitted.
12 MR. WHITE: And if they are relevant.
13 MR. TRABULUS: And if they are relevant.
14 THE COURT: If there are any documents that are
15 not complete but completed by Mr. Trabulus --
16 MR. WHITE: Of course.
17 THE COURT: -- They'll be in.
18 MR. TRABULUS: Yes.
19 MR. WALLENSTEIN: So the record is clear, the
20 records of Mr. Reffsin's firm, relate to Who's Who
21 Worldwide and Mr. Gordon, not to Mr. Reffsin personally.
22 MR. TRABULUS: They are accounting records of the
23 firm done for that purpose.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 (End side bar.)
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1909
1 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
2 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government offers the
3 following exhibits.
4 407. 408.
5 THE COURT: Well, let's get them one by one.
6 MR. WHITE: That's what I'm trying to do, Your
7 Honor, read them off one by one.
8 THE COURT: Well, you just read two.
9 MR. WHITE: I'm sorry.
10 THE COURT: What is 407?
11 MR. WHITE: Tax return of Mr. Gordon.
12 THE COURT: I'm not going to say that each one is
13 in evidence. When they are through I'll say when you
14 completed your list, I'll say they are all in evidence.
15 MR. WHITE: All right.
16 THE COURT: This is a tax return of Mr. Gordon?
17 MR. WHITE: Yes.
18 THE COURT: For what year?
19 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I have a certain level of
20 detail, but not that much detail.
21 407 is Mr. Gordon's 1987 tax return.
22 THE COURT: You may proceed.
23 MR. WHITE: 408 is Mr. Gordon's 1990 tax return.
24 410 is Mr. Gordon's 1992 tax return.
25 411 is Mr. Gordon's 1993 tax return.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1910
1 MR. TRABULUS: 411 and 412 are already in, Your
2 Honor.
3 MR. WHITE: I'm sorry.
4 413 is Mr. Gordon's 1995 return.
5 414 is Who's Who Worldwide's 1989 return.
6 415 is Who's Who Worldwide's 1990 return.
7 418 is Who's Who Worldwide's 1993 return.
8 419 is the certified IRS transcript for Who's Who
9 Worldwide.
10 422 is a November 24, 1993 letter to Mr. Gordon
11 from the IRS which came from Who's Who Worldwide's files.
12 611 is the business record of Publishing
13 Ventures, Inc., it's a Contract of Sale for the
14 condominium at 200 Hummingbird Road.
15 612 is a certified copy of the mortgage for that
16 property.
17 613 is a certified copy of the deed for the
18 property.
19 614 is a certified copy of Publishing Ventures,
20 Inc., Certificate of Incorporation.
21 615 is a PVI business record. It's a closing
22 statement for the sale, for the purchase, rather, of the
23 Hummingbird Road property.
24 616 and 617 are Who's Who Worldwide checks to
25 John Kevorkian.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1911
1 618 is a lease of a condominium unit at which
2 Mr. Gordon was the tenant and Mr. Kevorkian was the
3 landlord.
4 621 are Who's Who Worldwide's checks to Dr. Paul
5 Kaufman.
6 650 and 651 from the files of Mr. Reffsin's
7 accounting firm.
8 650 is Mr. Reffsin's resume'.
9 651 is his CPA certificate.
10 652 is a Who's Who Worldwide general ledger.
11 653 is a Who's Who Worldwide trial balance.
12 654 is Who's Who Worldwide adjusting journal
13 entries.
14 655 is Who's Who Worldwide's general ledgers for
15 1991.
16 656 is Who's Who Worldwide's trial balance work
17 sheet.
18 657 is Who's Who Worldwide cash activity report.
19 658-A, B and C are Who's Who Worldwide's account
20 ledgers.
21 659 is Worldwide's adjusting journal entries for
22 1992.
23 660 is a Worldwide general ledger for 1993.
24 661 is Worldwide's general ledger --
25 THE COURT: You just said 1993. Are they both
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1912
1 1993?
2 MR. WHITE: Yes, Your Honor, they are both for
3 1993.
4 662 is Who's Who Worldwide's general ledger for
5 1994.
6 600 -- I'm sorry. I'm up to 663.
7 THE COURT: 2 is what I have.
8 MR. WHITE: 663 is Who's Who Worldwide check
9 stubs from December of 1991 through November of 1993.
10 664-A through E is Who's Who Worldwide's checks,
11 I'm sorry, check stubs.
12 665 through 670 are Worldwide check stubs. Let
13 me just check the year on that.
14 (Counsel confer.)
15 674 is Publishing Ventures bank statements.
16 I'll skip to 676, Publishing Ventures deposit
17 ticket.
18 677, Publishing Ventures bank statements for
19 1994.
20 And actually, Your Honor, I think I skipped one
21 by accident, 672, which I didn't mention previously,
22 Publishing Ventures check stubs from 1993 through 1997.
23 Now we are up to Exhibit 679, Publishing Ventures
24 deposit ticket for 1995.
25 680, Publishing Ventures bank statements, January
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1913
1 through March of 1995.
2 681, Publishing Ventures trial balances as of
3 September of 1993.
4 682, Publishing Ventures cash receipts activity
5 work sheet.
6 683, Publishing Ventures cash disbursement
7 activity work sheet.
8 684, Publishing Ventures accounting work sheet.
9 685, Who's Who Worldwide debit advices for
10 transfers to Publishing Ventures from 1993.
11 686, Who's Who Worldwide debit advices for
12 transfers to Publishing Ventures from 1984.
13 687 and 689, Registry Publishing bank statements
14 for 1993 and 1995 respectively.
15 690, Registry Publishing check stubs 1993 through
16 1995.
17 691, Registry Publishing deposit ticket from
18 1994.
19 693, Registry Publishing checks from 1993 and
20 1994.
21 694 and 697, Registry Publishing checks.
22 699, Registry Publishing bank statements.
23 700, Registry Publishing check.
24 701, a Registry Publishing debit memo.
25 703, Registry Publishing bank statements for
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1914
1 1994.
2 704, Registry Publishing bank statements for
3 1995.
4 705, Registry Publishing deposit ticket.
5 706, Registry Publishing cancelled checks.
6 707, Registry Publishing cancelled check number
7 987.
8 Exhibit 708 is a Registry Publishing cancelled
9 check number 988.
10 710 is a Registry Publishing check number 1003.
11 711 is a Registry Publishing check number 1004.
12 713, Registry Publishing check number 1006.
13 714, Registry Publishing check stubs 1994 to
14 1996.
15 715, Registry Publishing bank statements for
16 1994.
17 716, Registry Publishing bank statements for
18 1995.
19 718, a Registry Publishing deposit ticket.
20 719, also a Registry Publishing deposit ticket.
21 721, a Registry Publishing check number 1001.
22 722, Registry Publishing check number 1002.
23 723, Registry Publishing check number 1003.
24 724, Registry Publishing check number 1005.
25 725 is Who's Who Executive Club bank statements
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1915
1 for 1994.
2 726 is Who's Who Executive Club bank statements
3 for 1995.
4 727, Who's Who Executive Club check register.
5 728, Who's Who Executive Club cancelled checks.
6 729, Who's Who Executive Club check number 1004.
7 730 is Who's Who Executive Club general ledger
8 for 1994.
9 731 is Who's Who Executive Club bank statements
10 for 1994.
11 732 is Who's Who Executive Club check stubs for
12 1994 and 1995.
13 733 are Who's Who Executive Club cancelled
14 checks.
15 734 is Who's Who Executive Club check number
16 1025.
17 735 is Who's Who Executive Club check number
18 1039.
19 736 is Who's Who Executive Club transaction
20 register.
21 737 is Who's Who Executive Club deposit tickets.
22 The deposit tickets have checks attached to them
23 and it's all part of that exhibit.
24 738 is Who's Who Executive Club deposit ticket
25 with attached check.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1916
1 739 is a federated Who's Who, Inc., bank
2 statement for 1994.
3 740 is a federated Who's Who -- sorry.
4 Let me start again.
5 740 is a federated Who's Who bank statement or
6 statements for 1995.
7 741 is a federated Who's Who deposit ticket from
8 October '94.
9 742 is a federated Who's Who wire transfer debit
10 memo.
11 743 is another of the same thing.
12 744 is a federated Who's Who check number 1001.
13 745 is a Williams Who's Who, Inc. bank statements
14 for 1994.
15 746 is Williams Who's Who bank statements for
16 1995.
17 747 is Who's Who of Retailers, Inc. bank
18 statements for 1994.
19 748 is Who's Who of Retailers, Inc. cancelled
20 checks for 1994.
21 749 is Who's Who of Retailers transfer credit
22 memo from October 1994.
23 750 is Who's Who of Global Leaders, Inc. bank
24 statements for 1993.
25 751 is Who's Who of Global Leaders bank
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1917
1 statements for 1994.
2 752, Who's Who of Global Leaders transaction
3 record for 1994.
4 753 is Who's Who of Global Leaders check stubs
5 for 1994.
6 Your Honor, would you mind if I sat down while I
7 read this?
8 THE COURT: No. Go ahead.
9 MR. WHITE: I didn't know it would take so long.
10 THE COURT: I figure if you stood up you would
11 get tired faster.
12 MR. WHITE: Maybe I'll get my second wind and
13 I'll speed up.
14 THE COURT: Yes, that's what I was afraid of.
15 How many more of these do you have to go?
16 MR. WHITE: Yeah --
17 THE COURT: Another 50?
18 MR. WHITE: About.
19 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, I would be content, I
20 mean, if it is okay with the Court, to just indicate the
21 numbers and without the descriptions and perhaps that
22 could be done later, if that is acceptable to the Court.
23 THE COURT: I think it is, yes.
24 MR. TRABULUS: It is?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1918
1 MR. WHITE: That is acceptable?
2 THE COURT: Yes, it is acceptable.
3 MR. WHITE: Sure.
4 So I'll just read the remaining numbers.
5 THE COURT: Yes.
6 MR. WHITE: The last one I read was 753.
7 Also 754, 755, 756, 758, 760 through 763.
8 766, 767, 768 and 769.
9 771, 773.
10 774-A through J.
11 775-A through L.
12 776-A and B.
13 776-D through L.
14 777-A through J.
15 778-A through L.
16 779-A and B.
17 780-A and B.
18 780-D through J.
19 781 through 795.
20 796 and 797.
21 Exhibits 803, 808, 811 and 816.
22 I think that may be it.
23 One more exhibit I have to check on.
24 Your Honor, I left out Exhibit 798.
25 Exhibits 502, 502-A.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1919
Kaufman-direct/Scott
1 THE COURT: Just one minute now.
2 MR. WHITE: Sorry.
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. WHITE: 502, 502-A, 503, and 503-A.
5 THE COURT: That's it.
6 MR. WHITE: I think that's quite enough, yes.
7 THE COURT: You may proceed.
8 (Government's Exhibits as allocuted in the record
9 commencing on pg. 1909 and concluding on pg. 1919,
10 received in evidence.)
11 MS. SCOTT: Your Honor, the government calls
12 Dr. Philip Kaufman.
13 I'm sorry, Dr. Paul Kaufman.
14 THE COURT: Have a seat, please.
15 P A U L S. K A U F M A N , having been first duly
16 sworn by the Clerk of the Court, was examined and
17 testified as follows:
18 THE WITNESS: Full name is Paul S. Kaufman.
19 K-A-U-F-M-A-N.
20 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. SCOTT:
23 Q Could you tell us what you do for a living,
24 Dr. Kaufman?
25 A I'm a dentist.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1920
Kaufman-direct/Scott
1 Q How long have you been a dentist?
2 A 37 years.
3 Q Where do you practice?
4 A I practice in New Hyde Park. I'm right across the
5 Queens border in Nassau.
6 Q Are you acquainted with a man named Bruce Gordon?
7 A The name is familiar.
8 Q Are you aware whether he's one of your patients?
9 A He was one of my patients, I believe.
10 Q Now Dr. Kaufman, I'm showing you Government's Exhibit
11 621 for Identification (handing.)
12 MS. SCOTT: Actually, that exhibit is already in
13 evidence, Your Honor.
14 Q Do you recognize those?
15 A I believe they were made out to me, I recognize
16 them. I recognize them as checks paying me for services.
17 Q Are they checks that you or somebody in your office
18 endorsed?
19 A (Perusing) Yes.
20 Q And can you tell the jury the dates on those checks?
21 A April 14, 1992. April 23, 1992. And November 16,
22 1992.
23 Q Are these checks that were paid to you for services
24 that you provided?
25 A I believe so.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1921
Kaufman-direct/Scott
1 Q Now, the first check, can you tell us the amount of
2 that check?
3 A $1,500.
4 Q Who is the payer on the check?
5 A Who's Who Worldwide Registry, Incorporated.
6 Q Turning to the second check. Tell us the amount on
7 that check?
8 A Who's Who Worldwide Registry, Incorporated.
9 Q And the amount?
10 A I'm sorry, $4,250.
11 Q And finally, the third check. Can you tell us the
12 amount on that check?
13 A $3,500.
14 Q Who is the payer?
15 A Who's Who Registry, Incorporated.
16 Q Is that Who's Who Worldwide?
17 A Yes.
18 MS. SCOTT: Thank you. I have no further
19 questions.
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. TRABULUS:
22 Q These were for dental implants?
23 A Yes.
24 MR. TRABULUS: No further questions.
25 THE WITNESS: Somebody want the checks?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1922
Kaufman-cross/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Just leave them there, please.
2 Please call your next witness.
3 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, the government calls
4 Andrew Rosenblatt.
5 A N D R E W R O S E N B L A T T , having been first
6 duly sworn by the Clerk of the Court, was examined and
7 testified as follows:
8 THE WITNESS: Andrew Rosenblatt,
9 R-O-S-E-N-B-L-A-T-T.
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. WHITE:
12 Q Now, Mr. Rosenblatt, can you tell us how you are
13 employed?
14 A I work for the Internal Revenue Service.
15 Q And what's your position at the IRS?
16 A I'm an Internal Revenue agent.
17 Q How long have you been a revenue agent?
18 A Approximately 26 years.
19 Q And can you tell us what the duties of an IRS revenue
20 agent are?
21 A I audit tax returns of individuals, corporations and
22 partnerships to determine the correct tax.
23 Q Now, in addition to those duties, do you have any
24 special duties, particularly yourself, with the IRS?
25 A Yes, I do.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1923
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 Q Tell us what those special duties are?
2 A I'm the technical advisor to IRS district counsel in
3 Brooklyn.
4 Q And explain to us what the district counsel of the
5 IRS in Brooklyn is.
6 A They are the IRS attorneys.
7 Q And what do you do as a technical advisor to them?
8 A I assist in the review and recommendation of cases to
9 the Department of Justice for prosecution.
10 Q And as part of your review of cases for criminal
11 prosecution, can you tell us what sorts of things you do?
12 A I look through, read the internal agents' reports,
13 look through all the exhibits to determine if the numbers
14 are correct, and if not make changes, make recommendations
15 for changes.
16 Q Now, can you tell us approximately how many years
17 you've been doing that, reviewing criminal tax cases?
18 A Approximately 15.
19 Q Now, can you tell us your educational background?
20 A I have a BS in accounting from Brooklyn College, and
21 an MBA in taxation from Pace University.
22 Q And an MBA, that's a Master's of Business
23 Administration?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q Now, as part of your studies to receive your MBA, did
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1924
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 you have occasion to study the Internal Revenue Code and
2 tax regulations?
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q Have you had any special training with respect to the
5 Internal Revenue Code and tax regulations?
6 A Yes, I have.
7 Q Tell us what special training you've had.
8 A When I joined the IRS they had training on individual
9 and corporate tax law, and I took all the courses that
10 were given on that. And there's periodic reviews and
11 continuing professional education that I have to attend.
12 Q Now, do your duties with the IRS require a
13 familiarity and knowledge of the tax code and regulations?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Have you ever testified in court as an expert witness
16 in federal tax matters?
17 A Yes, I have.
18 Q Can you tell us approximately how many times?
19 A Approximately 15 to 20 times.
20 Q And can you tell us in what kind of cases you've
21 testified?
22 A In criminal tax cases. I've also testified in tax
23 court on several occasions.
24 Q And in addition to tax court, can you tell us in what
25 courts you've testified as an expert witness in criminal
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1925
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 tax matters?
2 A In courts in the Eastern District of New York,
3 including this building and in Brooklyn.
4 MR. WHITE: The government would offer Revenue
5 Agent Rosenblatt as an expert in federal tax matters.
6 THE COURT: Any objection?
7 MR. TRABULUS: I would like a little voir dire.
8 THE COURT: Surely.
9 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION.
10 BY MR. TRABULUS:
11 Q Mr. Rosenblatt, on each occasion that you testified,
12 you testified for the government; isn't that correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q And in each occasion that you testified, was there a
15 United States Attorney who was questioning you initially?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Sometimes perhaps a Justice Department attorney; is
18 that correct?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q And have you ever testified for any position --
21 withdrawn.
22 Have you ever testified for a taxpayer?
23 A No.
24 MR. WHITE: Objection. It does not go to his
25 qualifications as an expert.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1926
Rosenblatt-voir dire/Trabulus
1 THE COURT: Well, I don't know. It might.
2 Overruled.
3 MR. WHITE: Okay.
4 THE COURT: Besides it is interesting to hear
5 about it.
6 MR. WHITE: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question.
8 MR. TRABULUS: In fact, I'll change it.
9 BY MR. TRABULUS:
10 Q Other than on cross-examination, have you ever
11 testified for a taxpayer?
12 A I have not been called to testify, no.
13 THE COURT: You mean intentionally testified for
14 a taxpayer?
15 MR. TRABULUS: Right.
16 BY MR. TRABULUS:
17 Q Now, when you've testified, have you testified
18 concerning your familiarity with IRS procedures and
19 practices?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q You haven't been called to testify concerning what
22 the law is, have you?
23 A Yes, I have at times.
24 MR. TRABULUS: Is this being proffered as to an
25 expert as to what the law is because I would object to
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1927
Rosenblatt-voir dire/Trabulus
1 that.
2 THE COURT: He's being offered as an expert on
3 federal tax matters.
4 MR. TRABULUS: I have no objection, Your Honor,
5 but I would have to address question by question and
6 answer by answer.
7 THE COURT: Very well. I qualify him as an
8 expert on federal tax matters.
9 BY MR. WHITE:
10 Q Now, Mr. Rosenblatt, have you heard in the courtroom
11 or read all of the witness' testimony presented by the
12 government in the case thus far?
13 A Yes, I have.
14 Q And can you tell us what else, if anything, you
15 reviewed in preparation for your testimony here today?
16 A I've reviewed the documents in evidence.
17 Q Now, does that include the summary exhibits and
18 charts in the case?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q And those summary exhibits and charts, are they the
21 types of records that are relied upon by tax certificates
22 in forming opinions in tax matters?
23 A Yes, they are.
24 Q Have you reviewed the books and records of Who's Who
25 Worldwide that are in evidence?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1928
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 A Yes.
2 Q Now, first of all, have you heard the term "general
3 ledger" before?
4 A Yes, I have.
5 Q Tell us in layman's terms what a general ledger of a
6 corporation is?
7 A A general ledger is all the accounts of the
8 corporations, whether they be assets, liabilities,
9 expenses, income, capital.
10 Q Now, have you heard the term "trial balance"?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Tell us what a trial balance is?
13 A A trial balance is basically a picture of the general
14 ledger at a certain date.
15 Q A snapshot?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, have you heard the term "adjusting journal
18 entries"?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Tell us what those are?
21 A Journal entries -- when entries are made into the
22 books and records of the corporation, sometimes errors are
23 made so a journal entry generally will correct the errors
24 and reclassify items.
25 Q Now, let me refer generically to all of those types
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1929
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 of documents as books and records of the corporation.
2 Now, you've reviewed the books and records of
3 Who's Who Worldwide?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Was there a loan and exchange account for Mr. Gordon
6 in the books and records of Who's Who Worldwide?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, can you explain what a loan and exchange account
9 is?
10 A A loan and exchange account is an account set up to
11 handle transactions between the corporation and that
12 individual. Debits to the account would be increases to
13 the accounts for monies being given to the individual or
14 spent on his behalf. Credits to the account would
15 basically be repayments or reclassifications.
16 Q Can you tell us specifically with respect to
17 Mr. Gordon and Who's Who Worldwide how the loan and
18 exchange account would work?
19 A Well, we've heard a lot of talk about American
20 Express for instance. When a bill was paid for American
21 Express, the account would be debited. So it would be in
22 the left column, as I'm sure you will see later on.
23 Q And if the loan and exchange account were debited,
24 what would that mean? Who would owe who?
25 A The corporation is spending money on behalf of
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1930
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 Mr. Gordon, so Mr. Gordon owes the company money.
2 Q Now, Mr. Rosenblatt, let me show you Government's
3 Exhibit 652 which is in evidence.
4 Now, what is Exhibit 652?
5 A The general ledger of Who's Who Worldwide Registry,
6 Inc., as of December 31, 1990.
7 Q Now, that 1990 ledger, does that reflect a loan and
8 exchange account for Mr. Gordon?
9 A Yes, it does.
10 Q On what page?
11 A It's page, looks like page 4 at the bottom.
12 Q Now, Mr. Rosenblatt, can you take a look at the
13 bottom of page 4.
14 What is the heading on what are you referring to
15 as the loan and exchange account?
16 A It is shown as account 2200 and it says "loan account
17 BG."
18 Q Is there a column there that says "description"?
19 A Yes, there is.
20 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, can we just wait a
21 second as we find this document.
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 MR. TRABULUS: Copies that we have are very hard
24 to read.
25 THE COURT: You say on page 4?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1931
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, at the very bottom, the last
2 four lines.
3 THE COURT: What do you say this says?
4 THE WITNESS: It's account 2200, loan account,
5 BG.
6 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, may I approach and
7 just look over the witness' shoulder?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 The copy I have is practically illegible.
10 MR. TRABULUS: Same here.
11 THE COURT: Go ahead. Come up.
12 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Your Honor.
13 THE WITNESS: This one isn't so great either.
14 MR. WHITE: That's the problem. That's the
15 original.
16 MR. WALLENSTEIN: With your permission, I'll join
17 Mr. Trabulus.
18 THE COURT: Anybody else want to come up? Let's
19 go.
20 THE WITNESS: I'll move over.
21 MR. GEDULDIG: Mr. Reffsin who is an accountant
22 asked if he could go up and look. I wonder if there is a
23 problem.
24 THE COURT: I tell you what we'll do, we'll take
25 the book over to you before we do anything else,
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1932
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 Mr. Reffsin.
2 MR. GEDULDIG: Thank you.
3 MR. TRABULUS: We'll just look on.
4 We don't find it.
5 THE COURT: Did you see the entry?
6 MR. TRABULUS: We see the entry. Some of them
7 are bound upside down and they are illegible.
8 Excuse me, I just found the page.
9 THE COURT: Do you see it, Mr. Trabulus?
10 MR. TRABULUS: I have it.
11 THE COURT: Do you have see it, Mr. Wallenstein?
12 MR. WALLENSTEIN: Yes, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Do you want to show it to
14 Mr. Reffsin?
15 MR. TRABULUS: Sure.
16 THE COURT: What we can do, Mr. Wallenstein, when
17 you see it you can show it to him because you have copies
18 of it also.
19 MR. WALLENSTEIN: I do, Judge.
20 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Very well. You may proceed.
22 BY MR. WHITE:
23 Q Now, is there in that loan account, the account that
24 says "loan account BG," is there a description column?
25 A Yes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1933
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 Q Now, tell us what sort of things are in the
2 description column?
3 A On that page, the bottom of page 4 there are a couple
4 of items that were paid to Bruce Gordon.
5 On the next page, page 5, there are items to
6 Bruce Gordon, LILCO, Vincent Manngard, M-A-N-N-G-A-R-D,
7 Diner's Club, insurance companies.
8 THE COURT: You are just taking some of them,
9 right?
10 THE WITNESS: I'm not reading all of them.
11 THE COURT: The entire page 5, is that what you
12 say the Bruce Gordon loan and exchange account is?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's a continuation.
14 There's a lot of checks to Bruce Gordon on that
15 one.
16 BY MR. WHITE:
17 Q Let me stop you there for a minute.
18 Where it says "Bruce Gordon," what does that
19 represent?
20 A A check written to Bruce Gordon by Who's Who
21 Worldwide.
22 Q And where it has some other name in the description
23 column, is that a payment to some other person?
24 A Yes, it would be.
25 Q How many pages does the loan account cover? It
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1934
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 starts on page 4.
2 A The full page 5, full page 6. You will see an item
3 London Jewelers that you've heard about. Perucci
4 Boutique.
5 THE COURT: How do you spell it?
6 THE WITNESS: I think P-E-R-U-C-C-I. It's about
7 the middle of page 6. There's a little line next to it in
8 the ledger. It goes onto page 7 about halfway down the
9 page.
10 BY MR. WHITE:
11 Q Now, is there a debit column in that account?
12 A Yes, there is.
13 Q And are there numbers listed in the debit column?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, explain what the numbers in the debit column
16 represent?
17 A Those are the payments that are made either to Bruce
18 Gordon or on his behalf. They increase the amount of the
19 loan to the corporation.
20 Q Now, is there a credit column in this account?
21 A Yes, there is.
22 Q Now, generally, what would go in the credit column?
23 A The credit column would generally include repayments,
24 reclassifications of items. Say an item was put in there
25 and original was charged to his loan account and they
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1935
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 realized it was a mistake and shouldn't have been in the
2 loan account, they would credit the account to take it
3 out.
4 Q And that credit would be a reclassification?
5 A Could be, yes.
6 Q It's an example of a reclassification.
7 A Yes.
8 Q Now, if you could review the loan account for this
9 year 1990 and tell us if there are any credits to
10 Mr. Gordon's loan account which would be either
11 reclassifications or repayments?
12 A Yes, there are.
13 Q Now, putting aside the reclassifications, are there
14 any repayments?
15 A There's one item to record BG payroll on December 31,
16 1990. It looks like 23,205 which is really not a
17 repayment, it's a reclassification of his salary.
18 Q Can you explain what that means, a reclassification
19 of salary?
20 A It was originally set up to be a loan not taxable and
21 it was brought out to salary, which of course would be
22 taxable.
23 Q Can you tell us what's the total amount of
24 Mr. Gordon's personal expenses that were paid by Who's Who
25 Worldwide in 1990?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1936
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 MR. TRABULUS: Objection to form, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.
3 BY MR. WHITE:
4 Q Based on the review of the documents, this document
5 and the other books and records of the company, can you
6 tell us what the total amount of expenses for Mr. Gordon
7 were expended for the corporation in 1990?
8 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: On what ground?
10 MR. TRABULUS: Well, Your Honor, is he asking for
11 a total of the account, this particular account?
12 THE COURT: That's what he's asking for.
13 MR. TRABULUS: That's not what he said. I don't
14 think the question he asked could possibly be answered
15 from that.
16 THE COURT: Unless there is a predicate question
17 before that.
18 Yes, sustained as to form.
19 BY MR. WHITE:
20 Q Mr. Rosenblatt, tell us what is the total of
21 Mr. Gordon's loan account for 1990?
22 A The balance of the account according to the general
23 ledger (perusing) it looks like $52,329.50.
24 Q Now, in layman's terms, that loan balance at the end
25 of 1990 means what?
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1937
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 A Mr. Gordon owes Who's Who Worldwide that amount of
2 money.
3 Q If you can look at Exhibit 655 which is in evidence.
4 Now, what is Exhibit 655?
5 A 655 is a general ledger as of July 31, 1991 for Who's
6 Who Worldwide Registry, Inc.
7 Q Now, can you tell us where or on 655 is there a loan
8 and exchange account for Mr. Gordon?
9 A Yes, there is.
10 Q Can you tell us what page it is on or where it
11 begins?
12 A It begins the middle of page 3.
13 THE COURT: Wait a minute now. Just hold it a
14 minute. Let's find 655.
15 MR. WHITE: Sorry.
16 BY MR. WHITE:
17 Q Can you page through it and tell us where it ends?
18 A It starts the middle of page 3, it's all of page 4
19 and the next page we have in the document is page 6 which
20 is starting with different accounts. So we have page 5 is
21 missing. So it appears page 5 is missing from the
22 document but it would I think continue into that.
23 Q So 655 has pages 1 through 4 and then 6; is that
24 right?
25 A That's correct.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1938
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I would like to, with the
2 Court's permission, hand out pages 1 through 4 and 6 to
3 the jury so they can follow along.
4 THE COURT: Yes. 1 through 4.
5 1 and 2 doesn't concern the Bruce Gordon account,
6 correct?
7 THE WITNESS: Excuse me?
8 THE COURT: Pages 1 and 2 don't have the Bruce
9 Gordon account?
10 THE WITNESS: No, it starts in the middle of
11 page 3.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 BY MR. WHITE:
14 Q Now, can you tell us again what time period this
15 ledger covers?
16 A This ledger starts in January of 1991 and goes
17 through July 31, 1991.
18 Q Now, can you -- if the jury follows along, can you
19 tell us some of the items that are in the description
20 column on pages 3 and 4?
21 THE COURT: So we are starting in the middle of
22 page 3, correct?
23 MR. WHITE: Right. With the heading that begins
24 "loan account, BG."
25 THE WITNESS: Right. Account number 2200. Loan
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1939
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 account BG, and then we have the columns, the dates, the
2 description, the reference column which are check numbers,
3 and the debit and credit columns and then changes in
4 balances.
5 Q And tell us what sort of expenses are listed in the
6 description column?
7 A Again, like in 1990, there's checks to Bruce Gordon.
8 There's Vince Manngard, Gulf, New York Telephone, American
9 Express, LILCO, Cablevision, Gulf Oil, Chase Visa,
10 insurance. I see Ronald Bassiur, Rally Motors, Great Neck
11 Imaging, Blodnick & Goldstein. A check to Elissa --
12 THE COURT: All right. We get the idea.
13 BY MR. WHITE:
14 Q Now, are there any credits in the credit column for
15 this account for this year?
16 A There are --
17 MR. TRABULUS: Objection, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: What grounds?
19 MR. TRABULUS: First of all, he said for this
20 year and the testimony is only for a half a year and he
21 also indicated that a page was missing.
22 THE COURT: Other than the fact that a page is
23 missing and it's between January 1st, I assume, 1991 and
24 July 31, 1991, is that your question?
25 MR. WHITE: Yes, Your Honor.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1940
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 A There are no credits shown on page 3 and there are no
3 credits shown on page 4.
4 THE COURT: How about 6?
5 THE WITNESS: 6 are unrelated accounts. They are
6 not loan account BG.
7 THE COURT: So the only sheets that are in this
8 exhibit, Government's Exhibit 655, are pages 3 and 4?
9 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
10 BY MR. WHITE:
11 Q Now, Mr. Rosenblatt, because of the missing page,
12 does that document reflect what Mr. Gordon's loan balance
13 was at the end of 1991?
14 A No, it doesn't.
15 Q Is there a way that you can determine what it was at
16 the end of 1991?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How is that?
19 A I believe there are accountant work papers from
20 Mr. Reffsin, that Mr. Reffsin prepared that would show us
21 the total.
22 Q Can you tell it from the 1992 ledger?
23 A Yes, and generally the beginning balance of one year
24 is the end balance of the prior year.
25 Q Let me show you Exhibit 658-B which is in evidence.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1941
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, before we start with
2 another year, I see it is approaching 5.
3 THE COURT: Well, do you want to get a figure for
4 the loan balance for 1991? Is that what you are doing or
5 are you not?
6 MR. WHITE: I was going to come back to that.
7 THE COURT: All right. Then we'll break.
8 You may step down, Mr. Rosenblatt.
9 Members of the jury, we'll recess until 9:30
10 tomorrow morning.
11 Please don't discuss the case. Keep an open
12 mind. Don't enter into a course on accounting. Don't
13 start looking up these terms. Just -- you'll get all the
14 evidence from the witnesses and the exhibits in this
15 case. That's how you will decide the case, not on any
16 information from the outside. So don't look for any.
17 Keep an open mind. Come to no conclusions.
18 Have a nice evening. We'll see you at 9:30
19 tomorrow morning.
20 Good night.
21 (Jury exits.)
22 THE COURT: Mr. White, are those books for me up
23 here?
24 MR. WHITE: Yes, they are.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1942
Rosenblatt-direct/White
1 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if we could, just one
2 thing.
3 THE COURT: You want to know the witnesses for
4 tomorrow.
5 MR. TRABULUS: And something else too which is
6 fairly minor.
7 THE COURT: One of them is Mr. Rosenblatt.
8 MR. TRABULUS: We may not go beyond him tomorrow,
9 but will there be another witness tomorrow and if so who
10 will that be?
11 MR. WHITE: My expectation is that Mr. Rosenblatt
12 would take all of tomorrow, a lot of it on direct and I'm
13 sure there will be substantial cross-examination.
14 MR. TRABULUS: Fair enough.
15 MR. DUNN: If he doesn't, who is the next
16 witness?
17 MR. WHITE: I do not know. I literally do not
18 know.
19 THE COURT: You better think about it and let
20 them know who will be the next witness.
21 MR. WHITE: I think it has progressed a little
22 bit faster and I will have to figure it out who is next.
23 THE COURT: Figure it out. You have here a good
24 half an hour to an hour after court recesses.
25 MR. WHITE: Yes.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1943
1 THE COURT: Tell them about it.
2 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, Mr. Connor or O'Connor
3 is CJA. The amount authorized will fairly be exhausted
4 pretty soon. Will Your Honor entertain a further
5 authorization for more funds?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. TRABULUS: Thank you.
8 MR. DUNN: It seems to me they will be getting
9 close to the end of the tax case where most of the
10 defendants will not be involved. The government must know
11 who they plan to be the first or second witness in that
12 part of the case, can't they just tell us that?
13 THE COURT: Well, they can if they want to but
14 I'm not insisting that they do it, except the day before,
15 that has been the routine and that's what we'll follow.
16 Do you have any other witnesses before you get
17 through with this count?
18 MR. WHITE: Maybe another witness or two.
19 THE COURT: Certainly will take into the morning.
20 MR. WHITE: And certainly to Friday, and that's
21 why I have to figure it out.
22 THE COURT: You'll know over the weekend then.
23 (Recess taken.)
24 MR. TRABULUS: Your Honor, if I can just go
25 outside and get my client for a moment.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1944
1 THE COURT: Anyone around who is outside in the
2 parking lot, tell them to come in.
3 Now, there was a communication made to me by the
4 U.S. Attorney, nothing untoward, about tomorrow. Now
5 what's the story?
6 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I'm sorry I didn't raise
7 it when everybody was here.
8 THE COURT: I think that's what you should have
9 done.
10 MR. WHITE: I'm sorry. I wasn't aware of the
11 nature of the problem at the time.
12 THE COURT: You don't have to reveal the nature
13 of the problem, if you don't want to. I understand that
14 the witness does not and it has nothing to do with this
15 case, it's a personal matter. But what's the problem?
16 MR. WHITE: The problem is that because of this
17 personal problem, Mr. Rosenblatt would have to leave court
18 tomorrow at approximately 3 o'clock. I would anticipate
19 that under normal circumstances he would still be
20 testifying at that point.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Now, we'll let him leave at
22 3 o'clock. Who will you put on at 3 o'clock? The reason
23 I asked you to come back is so that you will prepare for
24 another witness. The reason I'm doing that because in a
25 trial of this complexity and number of documents, these
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1945
1 huge numbers of large loose-leaf books, I think it only be
2 fair that the defendants be apprised of the witnesses so
3 they can prepare for it.
4 MR. WHITE: Right. Actually, Your Honor, the
5 problem is I'm sort of caught short myself.
6 THE COURT: Well, tell me what number of
7 witnesses? Who? Who will you put on?
8 MR. WHITE: Your Honor --
9 THE COURT: If there's one of a number, give us
10 the names.
11 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, that's my problem. We
12 are sort of at the end of the tax case. There are a
13 couple more people who might or might not come.
14 THE COURT: Who are those people?
15 Let the record indicate that not all the
16 defendants are present, not all the lawyers are present
17 either, right.
18 MR. SCHOER: Mr. Neville is the only lawyer not
19 present and Mr. Jenks.
20 THE COURT: Is there any objection to discussing
21 this without the other attorneys and defendants? I don't
22 think there is anything that is prejudicial or even of
23 substantive value. Anybody object to this?
24 MR. TRABULUS: No, Your Honor.
25 MR. WALLENSTEIN: No, Your Honor.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1946
1 MR. LEE: No, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: And I want somebody or one or more of
3 you to call the other attorneys. Would somebody undertake
4 to do that? Does anybody know the numbers of the other
5 attorneys?
6 MR. TRABULUS: I have them.
7 MR. NELSON: I have that, Judge. I will contact
8 Mr. Jenks.
9 THE COURT: Call him.
10 MR. NELSON: Yes.
11 THE COURT: Now, who do you have?
12 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, there is Mr. Reslin,
13 R-E-S-L-I-N. Mr. Kevorkian. Mr. Hynes, H-Y-N-E-S.
14 I mean also on the possible list is Ms. Colletti,
15 C-O-L-L-E-T-T-I.
16 THE COURT: When you say "possible," will you use
17 all of those witnesses or does possible mean you don't
18 know you can get them?
19 Let the record indicate that Mr. Neville came in.
20 Come in, Mr. Neville. We just learned that
21 Mr. Rosenblatt has to leave at 3 o' clock tomorrow because
22 of personal reasons, something personal occurred. So
23 we're trying to get the names of the possible other
24 witnesses.
25 MR. NEVILLE: I see. Thank you, Your Honor.
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1947
1 THE COURT: Do you agree it was okay for us to go
2 ahead with that in your absence?
3 MR. NEVILLE: Absolutely.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 Who else? Now, you will give Mr. Neville --
6 Mr. Nelson, you will give the names of the witnesses.
7 MR. NELSON: I'll speak to Mr. Jenks, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 You are not sure you will use all of them or you
10 can't get ahold of them.
11 MR. WHITE: Both.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 Who else might possibly? I want every possible
14 witness that you may have tomorrow.
15 MR. WHITE: Your Honor, as I said I'm sort of
16 caught short. I assumed Agent Rosenblatt would continue
17 perhaps into Friday, so what I told you is what I've got
18 for tomorrow, unless I can scrape up someone else.
19 THE COURT: So that's your best estimate, the
20 witnesses you said, and nobody else.
21 MR. WHITE: Right.
22 THE COURT: Okay. We'll see you tomorrow at
23 9:30.
24 MR. WHITE: But, Your Honor, that raises the
25 problem of if I can't get them or if I have a problem, I
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1948
1 might not be able to fill between 3 and 5.
2 THE COURT: I sincerely hope you get somebody
3 because I'm directing you to get somebody in here and if
4 you have to subpoena them, send out these law enforcement
5 officers with badges that we heard so much about.
6 MR. GEDULDIG: Agent Biegelman could do the job,
7 Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Tell them I'm directing them in.
9 MR. WHITE: Okay.
10 THE COURT: All right. Tomorrow at 9:30.
11 (Proceedings adjourned.)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1949
1 INDEX
2
3
4
M A R I A G A S P A R............................. 1697
5 FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION............................ 1697
CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 1757
6 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 1787
CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 1793
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 1797
CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 1815
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 1819
CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 1820
9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION................................. 1852
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.................................. 1874
10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.................................. 1884
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.................................. 1886
11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.................................. 1891
REDIRECT EXAMINATION................................. 1894
12
R O B E R T B E R N S T E I N..................... 1896
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION................................... 1897
CROSS-EXAMINATION.................................... 1902
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION................................. 1903
RECROSS-EXAMINATION.................................. 1904
15
S T A N L E Y C H A S E .......................... 1905
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION................................... 1905
17 P A U L S. K A U F M A N........................ 1919
DIRECT EXAMINATION................................... 1919
18 CROSS-EXAMINATION...................... .............. 1921
19 A N D R E W R O S E N B L A T T.................. 1922
DIRECT EXAMINATION................................... 1922
20 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION................................ 1925
21
22 (Continued.)
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
1950
1 EXHIBITS
2
3 Government's Exhibits 411 and 412 received in
evidence............................................. 1712
4 Government's Exhibits 842-A through 842-Z received
in evidence.......................................... 1724
5 Government's Exhibits 843-A through 843-X received
in evidence.......................................... 1724
6 Government's Exhibit 805 received in evidence........ 1763
Government's Exhibits 840 and 841 received in
7 evidence............................................. 1898
Government's Exhibits as allocuted in the record
8 commencing on pg . 1909 and concluding on pg. 1919,
received in evidence................................. 1919
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OWEN M. WICKER, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
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